17 April 2007
Tony Blair answered questions about the rise in inflation, public services, Iran, climate change, pensions and city academies during his monthly press briefing.
Parts of this transcript may have been edited
Opening statement
Tony Blair:
Hello everyone. Before talking about the Foreign Policy document that we published today, I would like to say some words about the events that happened in America yesterday.
Like everyone I am deeply shocked at the terrible loss of innocent lives at Virginia Tech University. I would like to express on behalf of Britain and the British people our profound sadness at what has happened and to send the American people and most especially of course the families of the victims our sympathy and our prayers.
Today, as you know, we publish another document from the Policy Review, this has been conducted across government and let me just summarise very briefly for you what is in the document and the main points of it. Essentially it is a description of what in many ways has been a unique foreign policy here in this country over the past 10 years and an attempt to explain what has been different about it and why we believe that that is the right way forward for our country, also in the future.
There have been really three elements to the review. First of all we have been prepared in a way I think very few other countries have to combine what you might call hard and soft power. The preparedness to use military action where it is appropriate and also take a leading position on issues such as global poverty, not least in Africa.
Secondly, it has been a foreign policy essentially underpinned by two alliances, one with the United States of America and the other the strategic partnership of Britain inside the European Union, so for a long period of my time in politics people were told to choose between a strong alliance with America and a strong position in Europe. We have quite deliberately eschewed that choice and said we should do both, we should keep both alliances strong.
And the third thing is, it has been to a considerable degree driven by values. It has been values-based in a world which is increasingly interdependent and what we have argued is that it is in Britain’s interests in the early 21st century to have a foreign policy in which our self-interest is seen in terms not just of the immediate impact of international situations on our own country but also in terms of the long term and more indirect impact that comes from an interdependent world in which problems in one region will eventually spill out into problems in another. So for example what we say about Africa is not merely that there is a strong moral cause for helping the most poor in Africa but also if we allow failed states to develop in Africa, if we allow massive global poverty, in the end these problems, through migration, through terrorism, come back and affect us.
Over these past 10 years, as you know we have been prepared to intervene and take military action where we believed it to be necessary to protect and advance those values: in Kosovo, in Sierra Leone, in Afghanistan and most recently in Iraq. We have also taken a view that the Middle East Peace Process and the spread of democracy is a vital part of ensuring that we defeat those elements that are trying to promote terrorism in the world today. We have particularly taken a strong leadership role on Africa and I would in that connection draw your attention to what is happening at the moment in the Security Council over Darfur. Let me repeat that I believe that what is happening in Darfur is a scandal that the world must act to stop. It is clear that the only thing that will make the Sudanese Government understand its responsibilities is pressure and we must be prepared, as a United Nations Security Council, if they do not agree to the UN package to pass a strong Resolution with sanctions in respect of the Sudanese Government.
On climate change, I think as the Security Council debate shows today, this next month will be absolutely vital. Ever since the Gleneagles G8 Summit we have a process in which for the first time there is a dialogue that involves not just Europe, but also America and China and India - this G8 plus Five process that has been continuing. I repeat what I have said on many occasions, the only way that we are going to combat effectively the threat to our environment will be if we manage to get a deal following the expiry of the Kyoto Protocol in 2012 that involves China and America and India as well as the countries in Europe. If we are able at the German G8 to agree the basic principles of a new framework and those are principles that those three countries - in other words America, China and India as well as the rest of us - are prepared to agree to, I think that would be a major signal of hope for the future. And we will continue, obviously, particularly over the coming weeks to play our full part in trying to bring about a resolution of the World Trade Talks which are going to intensify now over the coming weeks. This is probably something which, with everything else that is happening in the world people have not focussed on sufficiently but over the past few weeks there have been very intensive negotiations going on led by the World Trade Organisation. I am actually more hopeful that it is possible to achieve a break-through now, but the next few weeks are going to be crucial on it.
So I suppose the best way of summarising this would be to say that what we have tried to do in this document is take a 21st century view of where Britain is. 100 years ago we had still intact an Empire, we were before the First World War, we could make our influence and power and weight count on our own. In the year 2007 we still have immense standing, weight, influence in the world but in order to keep that, in my judgment, we have to be prepared to use hard as well as soft power, we have to keep our two critical alliances with America and with Europe strong, and we have to recognise that more than ever before a foreign policy in today’s world has to have an appeal to justice, to democracy, to ensuring that everybody gets access to a decent standard of living, in other words it has got to be an appeal that is based on certain global values in order to be effective. That is the foreign policy we have tried to achieve over the past decade. I think what is interesting about this document is that it shows the cross-government determination that those should be the hallmarks of foreign policy for the future.
Right, now ask whatever you wish.
Question:
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Tony Blair:
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Tony Blair:
No point in trying to get me into that either directly, indirectly or in any other way or description.
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Tony Blair:
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Tony Blair:
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Question:
Let me ask you about something in the news today. Inflation is up to record levels since 1997. The Governor of the Bank of England is warning that interest rates are going to have to go up which means dearer mortgages for people. [Party political content] and the House of Commons is today debating a motion that says this House has no confidence in the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s handling of occupational pensions. What has gone wrong and has the Chancellor’s luck run out?
Tony Blair:
Well name me a better Chancellor since the Second World War of this country. He has produced the longest period of economic growth, interest rates half of what they were, 2.5 million extra jobs, unemployment cut dramatically, massive investment in public services. The most important thing for us is to go back to the fundamentals and understand that they are strong and when you are in a third term, and we have never been in a third term before, yes you know you get accumulated problems and difficulties. But just take the two that you have mentioned there. If you look at the inflation record of this government it is superb. This is the first time that the Governor has had to write such a letter but he says in the course of such a letter that he expects inflation to come back down to around the target later in the year. And if you take, whether it is interest rates or employment or unemployment or growth, the fact is we have seen 10 years of the most steady rise in living standards that this country has seen as I say probably at any point in time since the Second World War so I think that overall you have to accept that you will get these problems.
Look at the moment for example you have got a big debate going on about the Health Service. The Royal College of Nursing are making various criticisms of us and if you focus for a moment on the negatives that are there with their claims of jobs losses and deficits and so on, then you will get a negative perception of the Health Service. But a few days ago there was a report that got absolutely no publicity at all but about this year’s handling of the winter within the National Health Service. Every year before we came to office, and the first two or three years after we came to office, there was what we used to call the winter crisis. There hasn’t been one, not for 6 or 7 years and the reason for that is that waiting lists are down, Accident and Emergency Departments are better, there has been a huge build up of capacity in the Health Service. We are on track effectively to get rid of the waiting problem in the Health Service by the end of next year. In the meantime, as we adjust to a new financial system, and as Trusts are expected to live within their means and as patients can choose to go elsewhere, so that causes a completely different set of financial challenges to hospitals. [Party political content]
Question:
Prime Minister, people will look at those figures today on inflation and they will say well my experience is that inflation is higher than that and a lot of estimates say that actually the real figure for inflation for households is higher than that - certainly for house prices it is higher than that. Do you think Britain is now an expensive country to live in and that people are being stretched to the limit in terms of being able to make ends meet?
Tony Blair:
I think it is tremendous pressure on family finances the whole time for families that are hardworking and struggling to make ends meet and pay the mortgage and so on, and yes of course and particularly for young couples trying to get their feet on the housing ladder, but if you take it back 10 or 15 years, we had a situation where interest rates would be 10% for years on end, where there was negative equity, people with homes being repossessed where there was a recession in the country, and I think it is part of the feature of today’s world, I am afraid, that people are pressed and stretched, but whilst the economy remains strong then you are generating the jobs and the growth and the wealth and yes, of course it is hard.
People work hard today, they work very hard. But on the other hand their economy overall is in better shape than it has been for years and I think the interesting thing as well - what you say incidentally, if you take the old RPI as opposed to the CPI and you add in the house prices, then of course interest rate rises then count to that but then commensurately when interest rates come down, then the RPI comes down, so I think that is why it is sensible for us to use the CPI index. But I think the remarkable thing is that this is the first time that the Governor of the Bank of England has written such a letter, and it is one percentage point over the 3% and he makes it clear that he believes that it will come back to around about the inflation target at the end of the year and as I say I challenge anyone to name me a Chancellor with a better economic record than this one.
Question:
Party political content
Tony Blair:
[Party political content]. The stories that are there about the Health Service at the moment are largely negative. That is perfectly understandable. We are going through a major financial reform. What is happening is that for the first time hospitals are receiving payment for the work that they do, patients are able to choose to go elsewhere, new competitors are coming into the Health Service to provide services and you have got practice-based commissioning for all the GP services. Unsurprisingly therefore that is a revolution in the finances of the Health Service and of course you are going to get problems and I think one of the things we have got to do is to be very open with people and say in a workforce of
1.3 million - that has increased incidentally by one quarter of a million since we have been in office - you cannot guarantee that everyone does the same job in the same way all the time. But if you look at the numbers of front line nurses, consultants, GPs they have all significantly increased and they are all being paid a lot more. Now at the moment they are having to come to terms with what is a very challenging situation within the Health Service but I think it will be shown when we come to publish the figures in June that we have got the Health Service back in surplus, having gone through this immensely difficult period, and you will then be in an easier time when the new system will bed down and when you will get at the end of next year to the elimination of what was the issue when we came to power in 1997.
I mean when we came to office, the thing that people used to say on the doorstep, in the media - it is quite instructive to go back and look at the 1997 cuttings - people literally died on waiting lists, waiting for heart treatment. There were people waiting over 18 months just on an In-Patient waiting list. There barely were not any Out-Patient figures because people waited so long. Now we are getting the In-Patient list down significantly, the Out-Patient list down significantly. We have added a new thing in which is to say what is more we are now going to get the Diagnostic waits which we now measure for the first time so that when you get to that 18-week maximum next year, it is not the equivalent of the old 18 months in 1997 which was just your time on an In-Patient list, it is the whole thing from the time you see the doctor, going on the Out-Patient list, getting your Diagnostic test, and getting your operation, maximum 18 weeks, average 8 weeks. Now, that is the transformation of the Health Service. Can we get there? Yes, we think we can, but only if we make the reforms as well as putting the money in, but whilst you get those reforms done it is going to be difficult. But that is the decision, I was clear about this a few years back that we had to, as a government, take the difficult decisions and get the reforms done, and I believe that they will stand the test of time and the framework will last.
And I think exactly the same on schools where I think that you will find that within the next few years every Secondary School in the country becomes either a Trust School or an Academy and I think you will also find, and I found this when I was talking to some of the independent, fee-paying sector the other day, I think you will find gradually that the independent sector starts becoming more involved in the state system and I also think you will find the Academies starting to take in Primary Schools as well as Secondary Schools. I think if we can put that in place, that is a revolution in public services.
Question:
Party political content
Tony Blair:
[Party political content] but the thing that you then have to do is show how the decisions that you are taking are the right decisions for the country. And that is why I say better to have difficulties over the National Health Service, or over schools reform, or over welfare reform now but sort ourselves out so that when we come to the election you can tell people this is the impact, we have actually improved the Health Service and our schools and here is the sign of it. It is better to do that than to shy away from the difficult decisions and then end up fighting an election where I think probably at the last election we might have lost ten seats, possibly even more, on tuition fees, or linked tuition fees because that was a major factor. Now the fact is had we actually introduced it at the beginning of that second term we would have been in better shape because once the system was introduced people said well what was all the fuss about, it is a better system.
Question:
Do you think Gordon Brown will be a reforming Prime Minister?
Tony Blair:
I have got no doubt that the reforms of the government will continue, and part of the reason for doing this whole policy review, and you will have heard what he in particular said when we launched the public service one, is to tell people this is a unified project [party political content]. Now that won’t be to everyone’s liking, but it is to mine.
Question:
Prime Minister, we seem to live in an era where public servants increasingly cash in on their experiences, we saw it with Christopher Meyer and Alastair Campbell. Do you intend to cash in?
Tony Blair:
I think I will leave all questions as to what I do afterwards until afterwards if you don’t mind. Anyway I am glad to see Newsnight is absolutely on the cusp of the policy issues of the day.
Question:
Can I ask you about the American shootings, do you think it is time that George Bush thought about some form of gun control? We learnt the lessons after Dunblane, surely it is obvious now that America has got to learn its lessons.
Tony Blair:
Well I understand why you ask that but I just think it would be completely inappropriate of me to make more general comments about gun laws in respect of America, that is a situation for America, for the American authorities and for the American people. I think the most important thing for us at this stage is just to send our, as I said earlier, sympathy and our prayers to the families of the victims and to the American people, but I don’t think it would be right for me to comment on this at the moment.
Question:
I just wondered, two points, if I could have another crack at the Miliband thing. You have this morning praised the Chancellor at great length for what he has done over the last ten years, I just wonder without actually saying what Mr Miliband should or should not do, if you could assess his achievements and abilities in the same way you have for the Chancellor? And secondly can I ask a question about trust, you have acknowledged in public that there is a problem with trust in politicians [party political content] It has been said that you believe that when you go that will draw some of the heat from this issue, it will take the sting out of it. I just wanted to know is that your view and if so why?
Tony Blair:
Well I am afraid on the Miliband question, you have another crack at asking it and I will have another crack at not answering it. I really don’t want to get into that today.
I think when I go, obviously a lot of the static and unpopularity that will attach itself to any Prime Minister after ten years goes with me, I think that is true. [Party political content] you don’t have to choose between a more just society and a more economically efficient one. I think that basic position will hold, that is my view. That is why I think actually in foreign policy our basic position, hard and soft, America and Europe, I think will hold, in any event that is what I believe [party political content].
I think the issue to do with trust in politics is a far more profound one, and this is not a subject for today, but I do think it is a lot to do with the interaction between your side and my side of the fence, because I think the single most difficult thing for both of us today is how you take immensely complex issues and make them sufficiently interesting to fit into your average news bulletin, and it is a real challenge for you and for us. Because in fact when we talk about soundbite politics we talk about it as if the politicians were desperate to give soundbites and the media were desperate to report them, actually both of us are just working within the reality which is if I say to you here is my three minute answer to the question you asked me, you are not going to use it and I am not going to get on the news, so that is the reality. So the question for us is how do you then get this more sophisticated and profound dialogue about politics today and political issues, and it is very hard.
I mean the whole business about this e-petition was partly because we started the idea, and I personally think it was the right thing to do, that you say how do you use the new technology to communicate with people in a different way so that even if people don’t agree with the government they at least understand why you are doing what you are doing, but it is a very hard thing to do nowadays. And I think I hold these monthly press conferences in part to open up a different political dialogue. I am the first Prime Minister to go in front of the Select Committees, you know we introduced the Freedom of Information Act. And you would think that people would be saying about the Freedom of Information Act, isn’t it wonderful that the government has been so open, or whatever, but it has tended to be whatever. I think the basic problem, and my advice to whoever comes after me from whatever party, is be really careful of this business because I spent a lot of time setting up this notion that somehow by an Act of Parliament, or a new initiative, or a different type of engagement you could get this different dialogue which is the only way to encourage greater trust, and I think it is a lot tougher.
Question:
… answer my question about why it is that you are not getting any credit for the things you claim that you have changed and improved in public services, your critics would say you spend too much time concentrating on getting in the press, getting on the television news, when actually the public would rather you just got on with the business and they could see the positive changes.
Tony Blair:
Yes but you do get on with the business, and actually part of the problem that we have in the Health Service is that when you get on with the business the problems arise. But I think you are correct in this sense that I think particularly towards the end of my first term and from the second term onwards I was very much of the view that you did the things that were difficult and what you believe are in the long term interests of the country and you absorb the pain of that, but one of the reasons why you absorb the pain is you are taking difficult decisions and that is painful too. But the other point is this, and it is a lot to do with all this sort of spin doctors and so on, and spin which has obviously been an issue and a problem for the government and for me personally, but I just think in today’s world I don’t know how you exist without a proper press operation when it is 24 hours a day, and 7 days a week.
I found even at the last election campaign I was amazed that in 1997 you had the issue of the day, you could more or less keep on the issue of the day, I found that by 2005 you had one in the morning, one at lunchtime and by the evening you were on something completely different. And I just think that is the world we live in and neither of us have really adapted to explaining politics yet to people in a way that they find comprehensible.
Question:
Prime Minister the policy review document you refer to speaks of a foreign policy for Britain that is values driven, activist and multilateralist. How does this translate to Britain’s foreign policy towards the Islamic government of Iran?
Tony Blair:
Well it is important because in respect of Iran we have wanted Iran to be in compliance with its international obligations, but we have said at the same time if Iran wants a different relationship with us we stand ready to have one. And obviously what we want in the end is to make sure that the whole of that region is more stable and more peaceful and I think in respect of Iran our policy has been very values driven but we need to have some echo back from the Iranian government. But I have got no doubt that the Iranian people are dynamic entrepreneurial people, it is basically a young population in Iran, I know they are heavily into the new technology, a lot of young Iranians travel and travel outside their country and I think it is a great shame if we can’t have a better and more reasonable dialogue with the government and we stand ready to have that dialogue if they want it.
Question:
I just wonder if you think for future British governments some sort of humanitarian military intervention is less likely because of the problems in Iraq? And if I could just ask a supplementary, Afghanistan, is it embarrassing for some NATO countries that nations like Australia have increased their troop numbers but some of them haven’t?
Tony Blair:
First of all I would like to thank Australia and the Australian people for their commitment in Afghanistan which is tremendous and absolutely typical of Australia and the Australian spirit and the Australian people, because I think Australia understands how important this is for the fight against terrorism worldwide. And there are NATO countries stepping up to the mark but you are right we need more to happen. I think this is a very difficult question about whether the interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq that are so challenging, whether that means that people are less likely to want to take on these types of military obligations. I think that if we want to remain a strong power capable of wielding real influence in the world then we have to keep these two principles intact: one, that we are allies of America and strong central partners in Europe; and secondly that we are prepared to use hard as well as soft power. And if you give up either of those two principles, for a country like Britain, 60 million people, small geographical space in the early 21st century, we will reduce significantly our power and influence.
Now I know that is not a very popular thing to say in certain quarters but I believe it to be true. And if you take Iraq, which is obviously a lot more controversial, but take Afghanistan which is also extremely tough, if we weren’t prepared to be committed and committed militarily in Afghanistan we would reduce our ability to fight terrorism effectively, even in our own country, and we would certainly reduce our impact on global policy.
Question:
But even right now does Iraq make Darfur more difficult?
Tony Blair:
No I don’t think it does unless you take the view that military intervention is an easy thing to do. It isn’t. But I have no doubt at all in respect of Darfur, until we threaten tough action against the Sudanese government who have continued to flout the United Nations rulings and United Nations resolutions, until we give them a clear message that they have to stop what they are doing, they will carry on doing it. And I believe in an interventionist foreign policy. And incidentally we have examples going back over the last 20 years of a non-interventionist policy, we had one in Bosnia in the early 1990s and over 100,000 people died before we realised we had to act. And I just think the reality of today’s world is that you can’t opt out of these conflicts, certainly not if you want to retain any control over factors and events that are going to affect the security of your own country, because I believe that the attack of September 11 was not just an attack on America, it was an attack on the western world and western values.
Question:
Prime Minister referring to this document and referring again to the United States, I mean looking back over the past ten years how important the relationship with the US is, how tricky it can be politically, how perhaps might you have done some things differently in the past, any second thoughts? Looking ahead, would a future Labour government have a similar relationship with the United States and have you been following our two year Presidential race and do you have any early picks in that context?
Tony Blair:
I think I am as keen not to get involved in that as I was to get involved in the earlier one to do with our own politics, so I won’t comment on that.
If you were a country like Britain and you want to remain a strong ally of the United States of America it is important that we only ever act on what we actually think is right independently as a country and that is why I believe in the interventions in Afghanistan, and in Iraq and in Kosovo. But it is also important to recognise that your allies are real allies when the going is tough, not simply when the going is easy, and I happen to believe that our strategic relationship with the United States has served this country well for many, many decades and it should continue to serve us well.
And if people want a so-called independent foreign policy of America, in other words we send out a signal, OK you guys in America you are on your own now, we will kind of pick and choose and not come with you when it is difficult, when the going gets tough and hard and so on, well I just believe that we will find very quickly that that strategic relationship that has been a foundation of our country’s foreign policy is lost, and I think that would be tragic for us and for the world. And you know of course it is difficult, particularly post-September 11. 3,000 people died, innocent people died on the streets of New York, America, whatever terminology you want to use, America felt from that moment on it was at war and I believe the most important thing for us was to be with them in that fight and I believe that still and I hope that in future we will be strong allies of America.
And I also believe, and this is the reason why I have always tried so far as possible to bring Europe and America together, that both people in America and people in Europe should reflect on what will be the major power in the decades to come, which will be China, and alongside that will be India, both of those countries with more people in them than America and Europe put together and almost doubled, that is the size of what we are talking about, and for America and Europe that basically share the same value system to stick together is in my view vital.
And I think the biggest danger, and I hope this does not happen in the course of American politics over the next couple of years, is that America moves to a more disengaged position. I think it is important that America is engaged with the world the whole time and I think sometimes in the rest of the world we completely under-estimate the forces that are pulling America towards disengagement and when there is a disengaged America I think the Europeans on this side of the water will realise what they have lost.
Question:
Prime Minister you talk about moving towards a more open and honest dialogue between politicians, the media. Des Browne yesterday came to the House of Commons and said he was sorry for a decision made in good faith by his department that later turned out to be a mistake, do you think politicians of all sorts should be more wiling to put your hands up and say we got it wrong, we meant well, it was a mistake? And looking back over your time in office are there any well intentioned mistakes you would like to apologise for?
Tony Blair:
No I think what Des said was perfectly sensible in the circumstances and I think, as I expected, it laid it to rest. I think politicians are prepared to do this, but you know there are events that happen like that and then there are entire policies when obviously we want to explain ourselves in a slightly different way.
Question:
Inaudible.
Tony Blair:
If you will forgive me I won’t go into lists, it is like when people say what are your biggest mistakes.
Question:
A good question.
Tony Blair:
Yes it is a good question and I always say it is for me to know and for you to find out.
Question:
Do you not accept Prime Minister …
Tony Blair:
You are coming back.
Question:
Do you mind, just on that one.
Tony Blair:
No I don’t mind.
Question:
You were talking about foreign policy earlier, it was just because it links to that. There was a serious point that people I think took away which is Des Browne did say sorry and many people were pleased a politician had, and they note that you have never said sorry for any mistakes in Iraq.
Tony Blair:
No it is not actually true as a matter of fact, but thank you for … What I won’t do I am afraid is apologise for, as I have said on many occasions, getting rid of Saddam. And actually I have been prepared on certain issues over the years to say that. I mean I think when something like this happens that you have had over the past couple of weeks I think everyone understood very clearly, and I thought Des explained this extremely well, look in retrospect it shouldn’t have happened, it happened, people say I am sorry about it and I think time to move on. And actually I think you will find that politicians are prepared to do that when they think it is justified.
Question:
Prime Minister the pound touched two dollars today, does that trouble the government? And on the wider question, whenever you are asked about the economy you talk about low interest rates, you talk about the problems of 1992, is there a danger that the country isn’t worried about the problems of 1992 any more, the country is worried about new problems, about house price inflation, a debt bubble, and that your government is fighting the last war?
Tony Blair:
Yes of course people are rightly concerned about 2007 rather than 1997 or 1992, but it is quite important sometimes I think just to put on the other side of the ledger the huge advances that have been made. Now the question is how do you take it to the next stage, and I think for example for many families, particularly down south, the problem is how do they, and particularly younger couples, get their feet on the housing ladder? Now we have an answer to that, which is to build more homes in the south and to allow the early release of land, speedier planning applications and shared equity schemes, it is at least a proposal. The trouble with our opponents is they say it is terrible that these young couples can’t get access to houses but we don’t want any more houses in the south east, and that is just not a policy that works. You are right, you move on to the next set of problems.
Look part of the reason why in a sense this a sensible moment, ten years in as it were, to reflect and then also to move on and move on from my leadership is because you know a lot of the issues that were most dramatic and salient in 1997 are issues that aren’t so much there today. Look in hospitals as I have already said the big issue was waiting, it is not the issue today; in schools the big issue was crumbling buildings, it isn’t the issue in schools today; the big issue in our cities was the absence of inner city regeneration, you go to any of the major cities today; the issue to do with the economy was boom and bust, so. All of these things in the ten years you deal with but of course the public, and this is the point about politics, you only win elections when you tell them what you are going to do in the future, you don’t sort of, you know we want to, well at least you can do but you will be lucky if you get it, you won’t come along and say to people right you should be really grateful for what has been done, they want to know what you are then going to do. [PARTY POLITICAL CONTENT].
That is why energy policy for example today in my view should be a major, major subject of debate in the country, it is as important I think virtually as defence in today’s politics, but if you had talked about energy policy ten years ago they would have not known really what you were on about. Do you see what I mean? So that is the thing that is important for us. But I agree in the economy today it is how do you build the new sectors of the economy, how do you for example provide proper energy supply for the country so that you can keep energy prices low, since that is one of the major reasons why you have got the rise in inflation, how do you manage to develop the opportunities for first time buyers, how do you keep the economy strong and competitive when you know you have got these countries like China and India on the rise? These are the new challenges.
Question:
And the pound?
Tony Blair:
The pound, well you know it is interesting, in the old days it would have been very common to comment on the exchange rate. I think that obviously it causes difficulties for manufacturers and exporters, on the other hand it also provides a countervailing pressure on inflation, but that is something, as someone once said, that the market will decide.
Question:
Prime Minister, today we have got this debate on pensions in the House of Commons. Irrespective of whether you cash in on your memoirs, when you leave office you will have a gold plated pension provided for by the taxpayer, it is estimated that it would cost an individual £2.8 million to acquire the same level of pension. When you came in I think it was Frank Field said you inherited the best pension system in Europe. You now leave office with a pension system in crisis, thousands of people, thousands of workers have seen their pension funds collapse, the Chancellor as we know from recent documents ignored advice about the dangers of that, do you think an apology is due from the Chancellor, and do you feel any guilt yourself, or twinges that you are in such a privileged position compared to the rest of the population?
Tony Blair:
Well first of all in respect of my own position I will be treated no doubt the same as any other Prime Minister, but in respect of the general position, I mean I said this when I was asked about it, that we believe it was the right decision in 1997 to withdraw the special tax credit for dividends because of its distortions on investment. You are quite wrong in saying that he was advised not to do it, he wasn’t advised not to do it. People set out the arguments for it and against it, and actually the warning in those papers, and just before I came here because I thought I might be asked a question on it, I went back and looked at them again, the actual warning was that some people would claim that as a result of this measure you would see an immediate fall in the stock market. It is not what happened, the stock market rose. The real correction happened in the year 2000 when £250 billion was wiped off the stock market. And the reason why you have pensions problems here and in every other major industrialised country is very simple, people are living longer. You know you have got a pensions problem in the US at the moment, you have got pensions problems in France, Germany, Italy.
The pension problems arise from the fact that people are living longer. The abolition of the tax credit on dividends, which was then offset by a substantial reduction in corporation tax, I am not saying it had no impact and people have worked out the impact, but when they work it out objectively and fairly it is small compared with the major impact of the stock market correction in the year 2000 and as I say the fundamental and basic point that people are living longer, you know that is why you have got the pension problem.
Question:
In your interview at the weekend and again today you said that you expect in the foreseeable future every school to become a trust school or a city academy, yet as I understand it there are only going to be quite a small number of applications to become trust schools and it is something that the school has to apply, you can’t impose it. I was just wondering why you think this could possibly happen? And related to that I don’t understand, this is the first time you have said you want city academies to spread to the primary school sector.
Tony Blair:
Yes, I mean we will announce in the next few weeks the first trust school applications, and I think you will find a substantial number of them, but this is building on something that is happening within the secondary school system now. Because schools are increasingly entering into relationships with outside and independent providers and the reason that they will go in that direction is the same reason that whereas a couple of years ago people were very sniffy about academies, now we have got people and MPs queuing up to have them in their area, and it is for a very simple reason, it is not just for financial support, it is because they are providing hope in schools that previously were hopeless. And the reason I believe that over time you will get the secondary school system moving to that trust and academy framework is because they provide better quality education for our young people.
And I think the vision I have always had for our secondary schools is that you move beyond the traditional comprehensive system and you end up with effectively far more independent non-fee paying state schools which develop their own ethos and their own purpose and have a far greater sense of their own dynamism and ability to develop in the way that they want. And if you look at the successful schools within our school system that is what is happening. And just remember today you have over 600 secondary schools with 70% five good GCSEs, when we came to office there were only 80 in the entire country. So we are not forcing people down that road but it is what is happening.
In relation to the primary schools, well I am simply telling you what some of the academy people were saying to me when I met them at a seminar a couple of weeks ago, some of them are now looking to incorporate into their set-up primary schools as well, and this is something again that is very normal in the independent fee-paying sector, that kids go to one school that often leads on to another and I don’t see why that shouldn’t happen in the state sector if people want it to happen.
Question:
Prime Minister I would like to ask you a question about your document, Britain in the World, it says - I want to be a first here - it proposes that there should be a new interdepartmental unit which is going to counter the propaganda successes of al Queda. Could you explain why this is needed, what is wrong with the Foreign Office doing this, and who is going to be in charge of it, is it Downing Street taking over this role? And aren’t unfortunate comparisons going to be made with the dodgy dossier? And finally could you say anything about the timetable for withdrawing troops from Iraq?
Tony Blair:
On the latter bit, no. On the unit itself the idea is this, of course it is a Foreign Office issue but it is also a local communities issue and it is also a Home Office issue and the fact is if you want to take the fight to the terrorists you have got to defeat their propaganda and their ideas as well as their methods. And that is why it is important, we believe, to get greater cohesion across government so that, for example, you are matching up the fight that you are engaged in with local communities to take people away from extremism, with for example the money that we are putting into schools in Pakistan today which is to try and replace some of the extreme Madrassahs with normal schooling. Now that is how you get a joined up policy and I think we have got to accept that today you can’t do this simply by looking at these things in different compartments, Foreign Affairs here, Home Affairs there, it doesn’t work like that any more.
Question:
Panorama on Monday Prime Minister went into a privately run prison, Rye Hill in Warwickshire, it found evidence of a prison officer in fear of her life, prisoners with mobile phones, officers on the take. It was a privately run prison. Thinking of your legacy, Churchill said that one good judge of society is the way it treats its prisoners, doesn’t this prove that the private sector can’t run prisons?
Tony Blair:
No I don’t think it does, to be honest. If you look back, we have had private sector prisons in this country since the early 1990s, there are good examples as well as bad examples. I can’t comment on the particular allegations that have been made. I know that the prison itself is responding, but I think it would be pretty far fetched to say that there had never been problems in any public sector prison. So I think we have got to be careful of drawing a public-private sector conclusion from this rather than a conclusion that says if something wrong is happening in that prison then it has got to be put right.
Question:
You mentioned the importance of the alliance with the US, how does Hilary Benn’s speech in New York fit in there?
Tony Blair:
Well I think if you read the whole of the speech I think it fits into it perfectly. I think all he was saying was you can’t defeat terrorism by military means alone, which is right. I say the same myself. Actually I thought it was a very good speech - but don’t take that as anything about anything!
Question:
In response to your bovvered sketch, Gordon Brown said that the British public is moving away from celebrity culture and all joining book clubs, does that prove that he is not a paid up member of the human race? And a question from a listener, they just said what is Gordon Brown like as a bloke? Well you have known him for 20 years, what is he like as a bloke?
Tony Blair:
I always get these types of questions from you. I am tempted to say: “I’m not bovvered”. But you know I think for anyone in politics today it is just different from how it was for people 20, 30, 40 years ago, it is just the way it is. I don’t really want to make any particular comment on it.
Question:
Do you think he is wrong then?
Tony Blair:
No I am not saying he is wrong at all, I am just saying, I don’t know what I am saying really.
Question:
One of our listeners said what is he like as a bloke, we don’t know much about him. You have known him for 20 years.
Tony Blair:
Yes I know, but let Gordon speak for Gordon, I don’t want to get into a whole great song and dance on the whole personality business thank you very much. Sorry about that.
Question:
Inaudible.
Tony Blair:
Wait and see.
Question:
Party Political content
Tony Blair:
Party Political content
Question:
Kayleigh Baker is a model pupil at Hurworth School in your constituency, the school has banned her from going to the end of year Prom and from playing in the netball team, her crime is to have refused to have attended voluntary, that is a voluntary extra revision class. Her parents are fully behind that because she is commonly agreed to be on course for a string of A grades, the school’s action is commonly agreed to contravene Department for Education guidelines, so I wonder whether you thought Kayleigh should go to the prom?
Tony Blair:
I think if you don’t mind I will leave that between the family and the authorities to sort out.
Question:
But it is in your constituency, the school.
Tony Blair:
I know.
Question:
Your agent has a view.
Tony Blair:
I am sure he does.
Question:
Not on the school prom, as it happens Prime Minister I am getting an extension built at home and I would be more than concerned, to put it mildly, if the project went on for ten years and at the end of it the chief guy was telling me he was only putting the final building blocks in place. Isn’t the reality, when you step outside the door of No 10 for the last time in a few weeks time you are going to leave behind a lot of unfinished business and more than a few dissatisfied disappointed voters?
Tony Blair:
You know the job is never finished, I mean it is just never finished. And as I was saying to one of your colleagues earlier, the moment you sort one problem another one appears. But I think if you look back in the north east over the last ten years and you ask the following questions: is the economy stronger, is the NHS better, are the school results better and the school system better, you would have to say yes to all those questions. And if you look in addition to that, I know places in my constituency where you know even take a little village like Fishburn in my constituency where the houses will now sell for £150,000 when ten years ago what would it have been, £20,000 if people were lucky. So there has been a lot of prosperity as well that has come into the area. And I think that of course, look you live with the nature of how politics is and people expecting quite rightly and always wanting more, but I think if we were to look back on the north east in the last ten years you would have to say the north east is a stronger, fairer and more successful place than it was in 1997.
Question:
So why are you still so unpopular?
Tony Blair:
Because it is the way it is, that is what doing the job is about, you know you end up with a situation where of course people invest even greater hopes and expectations, it is just the nature of it. And in the end what you come to as a political leader and as a Prime Minister is you end up saying look I have tried to do my best and these are the decisions I have taken and this is why I believe this country is stronger today, but it is a judgment people make and I suspect you get a slightly more balanced judgment over time than you do in the immediacy.
Right, how many more, well I think we have only got time for two more.
Question:
Inaudible.
Tony Blair:
I am afraid no such luck for either of us.
Question:
My question deals with the issue of western Sahara. Morocco has recently presented a plan to the United Nations giving a large autonomy to this area, how would you assess this project which comes at a time when the North African region is facing huge economic problems and threats from al Queda which is trying to infiltrate the region?
Tony Blair:
Well first of all I would like to express my sympathy to the Moroccan people for the recent terrorist outrage in Morocco and I wish Morocco well in its attempts to conclude a proper agreement in respect of the western Sahara. I know that the government has been trying hard there to make this work and we support its efforts to do that. And I think the most important thing is both in light of recent events in Morocco, in Algeria and elsewhere is that we should all stand united from whatever country and from whatever fate against those people that use terrorism to destroy the lives of innocent people. And what it shows in my view yet again is how important that sense of solidarity is.
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