9 October 2001
In an interview with the satellite channel Al-Jazeera, the Prime Minister Tony Blair has said that the terrorist attacks in the United States ‘was an act of injustice that meant that we had to take action against those people responsible’.
Interviewer
Once the tragic events took place in the United States over New York and Washington, it seems that you have jumped on the bandwagon, assuming in one way or another, the role of Mrs Thatcher during 1991 when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Why are you so enthusiastic about this war?
Prime Minister
On 11 September there were some 6-7,000 innocent people killed in the United States of America, but they weren’t just American citizens. There were more British citizens killed than in any other terrorist atrocity than we had ever known. There were hundreds of Moslems killed. There were women and children killed. And I felt that this was an act of injustice that meant that we had to take action against those people responsible.
Interviewer
Such an action, in your British justice, a person is not guilty unless proven guilty. In other words what I want to say is that bin Laden is accused. You are not trying to trying to perform your justice i.e. you want revenge rather than justice. Otherwise you would have brought him to justice.
Prime Minister
We don’t want revenge. We do want justice and of course if the Taliban regime in Afghanistan had yielded Osama bin Laden up and his network of terrorists, then they could have stood justice. But that is not what happened. They refused to yield him up. And we know perfectly well that the al-Qu’eda network, and Osama bin Laden are responsible for this. Indeed on your own station he made it clear that he praised those who carried out the attacks and thought they were the right thing to do. And I can’t understand how anybody who truly studies the teaching of Islam and the words of the of the message of the Koran can possibly justify the slaughter of so many thousands of innocent people, so when we act, it is not because we want to. It’s not because we wish to go to war, or have conflict. We are basically a peaceful people, but we have to take action against those who haven’t just carried out this act, but now threaten to carry out more such acts.
Interviewer
But some of your European partners, they wanted some caution rather than being hawkish as yourself. All Moslems, including all the Shias, have condemned this atrocity which took place in the United States and this man doesn’t think that he represents Islam. If he is a terrorist as you say, he doesn’t represent Islam. We know that. But now back to your strategy nowadays ..
Prime Minister
Can I just take you up on one point there. The Europeans, like myself, have been extremely concerned that any action we take is properly targeted. That we minimise any possibility of civilian casualties. That is why we waited. We didn’t strike back on the evening of
11th September or the 12th of September. We have waited almost 4 weeks to act, and part of that is precisely in order to make sure that we made sure that those attacks are targeted and against Osama bin Laden and his network, against the military installations of the Taliban. Not against the Afghan people. Indeed, when this conflict is over, it is important that we give every support to the Afghan people: humanitarian support, political support, diplomatic support, to make sure that those people have some sort of decent future, not the future of poverty and repression that they have under the Taliban.
Interviewer
You said you would be careful not to attack civilians with bombs, smart bombs and missiles. We know from history that when you bombed Libya in 1985-86, when you bombed Iraq in 1991, Lebanon in 1982. Many civilians suffered. But you talked about dropping bombs and food at the same time. Some UN agencies are sceptical about this strategy or policy because they are saying that you are trying in a way to kill the father and feed the son. In other words you have two and half Afghanis against the regimes and at the same time trying to appease the Moslem world.
Prime Minister
But I think you will find that the vast majority of people in Afghanistan loathe being under the Taliban regime. They have to live in poverty. They have no basic human rights. The women are treated abominably. There is a sort of dictatorship that means that any proper expression of thought is disallowed and the version of Islam that the Taliban regime and Osama bin Laden support is a version of Islam a million miles away from the reality.
Interviewer
Isn’t it the task of the Moslem world to see to that, not the Western Christian world.
Prime Minister
Of course, which is precisely why we have said right at the very outset how important it is that people understand. This is not about the West versus Islam. Decent Moslems, millions of them in European countries, have condemned those acts of terrorism in New York and elsewhere in America with every bit as much force as any of the rest of us. And rightly too. Because again, let’s be clear, when we listen to the words of Osama bin Laden, if he had his way, the regimes that he would replace, regimes in the Arab world, would be like the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. Now I don’t believe that anyone seriously wants to live under that type of regime.
Interviewer
I will just take you up on this point, Mr Blair. You said the Taliban, or Osama bin Laden, want to change the regimes in the Arab world. This kind of Islamist, or Moslem, when they were acting against their governments you considered them - I wanted to say freedom fighters - but people are fighting for injustice or political opposition. You harboured them in your countries. Not only that you gave them political asylum. Once they acted in your countries, you now consider them terrorists.
Prime Minister
That really is not correct. Insofar as there have been people associated with these groups operating in our country and other European countries, they have often been against the wishes of the government, but there are a whole series of legal procedures that have to be gone through before they are extradited in order to stand trial for offences elsewhere in the Arab world. But we have never supported the type of politics and the type of regime that people such as the Taliban and Osama bin Laden do. Because those regimes are repressive of people. The people, as I say, almost always live in poverty, and there is no proper respect for human rights.
Interviewer
I know that these people, Islamists, in your country, in France, in Germany and other countries, they are conforming to the law. You introduced the Terrorism Act in Britain last year. But at the same time these people in Europe are manipulating other groups in the Moslem and Arab world, and some Arab governments, mainly Egypt, asked for extradition, and you never handed anybody back.
Prime Minister
I think that is a perfectly fair criticism and that is exactly why we are trying to act. We did last year. We tightened the law and we will tighten the law still further.
Interviewer
Let me move to something else. Osama bin Laden links his struggle or his campaign to the question of Palestine and the Western military presence in the Gulf. Don’t you think that it is time that the West did something about the Palestinian question? Mainly Britain and the United States.
Prime Minister
But we do want to do something about the Palestinian question. Ourselves in Britain, the rest of Europe, the United States, we are desperate to see the peace process put back on track again. Constantly since 11 September I have said in virtually the first remarks I made, that this mustn’t be used as an excuse to let the peace process in the Middle East wither. On the contrary, what we should be doing is giving it added momentum. And of course we have to deal with the problems and the injustice that the Palestinians suffer. Of course we have got to deal with the conditions of the people living in the Gaza. We want to do that. In my Conference speech to the Labour Party just a few days ago I said that the people living in the slums of Gaza are every bit as much our cause. So we have got to make sure that we put the peace process back together again, but that peace process is not helped by the slaughter of innocent people through acts of terrorism in America. Those people who are nothing to do with politics or any peace process …
Interviewer
But in fact the Palestinian Minister said yesterday that he heard what bin Laden said. Mr …
………. the Palestinian Information Minister, said that it is true that there is oppression, terrorism, and killing in Palestine committed daily, but this doesn’t justify it or give cover for anybody, or any terrorist to kill civilians in the streets. We know that. But you want the peace process to work. Would you go as far as Mr Bush said recently that it has been always in the background of the Americans that there should be a Palestinian State. What do you think of this American attitude? Is it a change in policy, or is it because you need this alliance of Moslems and Arabs against this campaign of yours?
Prime Minister
No. From our perspective in Britain we have long supported the idea of a Palestinian State that emerges from a process of negotiation and helps the stability of all countries in the region, including Israel. And there has got to be peaceful co-existence in the end between Israelis and Palestinians. We know that. We for our part are prepared to do what we can in order to make sure that that process works. So when people, I think in the Arab world think that we sit there without any concern or care for what is happening, the suffering of people out in the Middle East. That is wrong. We do care about it, but we need to make sure that this process is put back on track, and in the end the only people that can negotiate this successfully are the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Interviewer
But your Foreign Minister a few days ago contradicted what you have said when you mentioned something about the Middle East, the Arab-Israeli conflict, and Mr Jack Straw, your Foreign Secretary said, the Prime Minister meant there should beland for the Palestinians i.e. as if you were not saying that there should be a Palestinian State.
Prime Minister
No, I think on the contrary what we have said, and I have just said to you now, it has been our policy for a long period of time, but it has to emerge from a process of negotiation and it has to be part of a solution that guarantees the security of all countries in the region. And that is the British position. I think it is the United States’ position as well. And I know from the conversations that I have had with President Bush that he is anxious and wants to make sure that the peace process gets back on track again, but you know the one thing, and I have learned this from the Northern Ireland peace process, I know it sounds a long way away, and very different, but it is the same thing. Terrorism is never a solution. Not in the Middle East, not visited upon the citizens of America.
Interviewer
This brings me to an important point which our viewers would like to hear from you Prime Minister. You are talking about not terrorism in the Middle East. Are you referring to the Israeli terrorism or to the acts of violence committed by Palestinian organisations such as Hizbollah against Israeli occupation.
Prime Minister
We have made it clear that we are against violence in all its forms. It is not just in the Middle East, and it’s not just the violence that has been visited on the citizens of America. There is a capacity now for terrorists to wreak havoc and destruction on a scale we could never imagine before, and I think people of all faiths, of all political persuasions, everyone who shares the same decent basic values, can take a stand against this type of terrorism.
Interviewer
These people - Hizbollah, Hamas, Jihad Islami - they are considered freedom fighters. They are a kind of resistance, as the British were helping the French Resistance against the Nazi occupation. So do you think these organisations are terrorist organisations when they are fighting Israeli occupation?
Prime Minister
I don’t ever agree with acts of terrorism. I don’t ever agree with it. But I think what is important now is to make sure that we get that process leading to a just and lasting peace back on track and we can do it if instead of the mechanics of violence and terror we sit down and we negotiate properly.
Interviewer
When you are talking about violence and terror, did you ever condemn the Israeli’s disproportionate actions against Palestinian civilians throwing stones, and you have Apache helicopters, missiles, tanks hitting the Palestinians.
Prime Minister
Again, you say that, but we have actually called for restraint on all sides in relation to this and it is important that we get it.
Interviewer
I’m sorry, how can you compare the victim with the aggressor.
Prime Minister
Well, you see the whole point about a situation like this is that once you get acts of violence going on both sides and there is conflict and despair and there are people being killed and all that people ever see on their televisions screens is this funeral, succeeded by that funeral. You will never get peace in those circumstances. Now we learned in a very, very hard way in our Northern Ireland peace process, in the UK where we had acts of terrorism taking place here and in Northern Ireland. Literally hundreds of people getting killed a year. We learned that the only way forward is to sit down and try and discuss, on the basis of equality and justice for all people. And we can do this, and we have to do it. But the way of doing it, which is why I think it is so wrong when people like bin Laden or the Taliban regime misuse the Palestinian cause to justify the killing of thousands of people, I don’t believe that there is any decent Palestinian that wants to see that as the answer.
Interviewer
Now Mr Blair, there are some quarters which are hinting that now Phase 1 has started i.e. bombing and shelling Osama bin Laden’s headquarters or training camps, and the Taliban and Phase 2 is going to be against countries harbouring organisations fighting Israel i.e. maybe Iran, Iraq, Syria or Lebanon. Can you tell me about this Phase 2? Is it in your books, is it on, on, on. Is it going to take place?
Prime Minister
What we made clear right from the outset is that we need to go after those people responsible for the 11 September atrocity. There is no doubt at all that they are the Al-Qu’eda network and they are harboured by the Taliban regime. We then have to set about dismantling the network of international terrorism at every level. Now there will be different methods chosen in different ways in order to make sure that that is done. But we cannot have a situation where our citizens are subject to cold-blooded slaughter on the scale we saw on the 11th of September. So I am not getting in the position of discussing the measures that we are going to take in the future, but it will be done on the same basis as now. In other words, building as broad a consensus of opinion as possible, and in that consensus of opinion, will stand Moslem, and Christian and people of other faiths, and Arab countries as well as Westerners.
Interviewer
Now there is a debate at the United Nations about terrorism, how to find a terminology for terrorism and these organisations which I mentioned such as Hizbollah , Jihad Islami, Hamas, other radical organisations based in Damascus in Syria and they are considered freedom fighters and they are considered by you, maybe, or the Americans, as terrorists.
Prime Minister
Well, some people may consider them to be freedom fighters ….
Interviewer
What do you consider them?
Prime Minister
Well, if they are carrying out acts of terrorism, as some of them are, and blowing up innocent civilians, then those are acts of terrorism, and I think it is to misjudge the cause of people for example who want to see the Palestinians gain the justice that they need, I think it is to misjudge their cause to believe that that cause is advanced by acts of terrorism. And I know, because I have these discussions often with our Palestinian colleagues, and with President Arafat and with others that they don’t wish to proceed in that way and in the end we will never get a solution on that basis.
Interviewer
But don’t you think that these people are so desperate… lead them anywhere. The West is not doing anything trying to compel Israel to move off occupied land and these people have nothing to do but to blow themselves up and kill their enemies. And the Israelis at the same time killing left and right civilians.
Prime Minister
But surely the right way forward is not to use a cause, however justified, as a pretext to slaughtering innocent people and women and children. And in the World Trade Centre bombing there would have been hundreds of Moslems killed in that. So how can that possibly be justified? I met some of the families of the people that died. I met a woman who is seven months pregnant who now, their child will never see their father. I met two ordinary middle-aged people. Very, very decent people, their one son, their only son. He had never had anything to do with politics. He died. Small children that died on those planes and died in circumstances of unbelievable cruelty. Now I refuse to believe that the vast majority of decent Moslems anywhere would ever justify such slaughter.
Interviewer
Now can you confirm to our listeners that there was … when it comes to countries in the Middle East harbouring organisations fighting the Israelis.
Prime Minister
Well I can certainly can confirm that we will take action against terrorism everywhere, but the method of doing that and the way of doing that is something that we will discuss not least with our neighbours and colleagues in the Arab world.
Interviewer
Finally, Mr Blair, you, the Americans, and some Middle Eastern countries helped the Mujahadeen at the time to fight the Soviets, the Russians, when they invaded Afghanistan in 1979. In 1989 the Russians left. You left these people to fight amongst themselves. You abandoned them. Now we are trying to bring back the Northern Alliance to take part in whatever you are planning for Afghanistan. At the same time you did the same thing with Iraq in 1991 when you liberated Kuwait and the result was that the Iraqi people are paying the price i.e. they are under sanctions and about one million Iraqi children died because of famine, lack of food, and so on. Aren’t you repeating the same thing in Afghanistan now?b
Well, you have got a very fair point on Afghanistan and I will answer that in a moment. But let me just say one word about Iraq. Saddam Hussein is the author of the misfortunes of the Iraqi people. He could use as much money as he wanted. Under the regime of sanctions that is in place he could use as much money as he wanted for medicines and food. He chooses not to. We are putting forward proposals in the UN Security Council, ourselves, now, Britain and other countries, which will allow access to far greater amounts of money provided he allows us to inspect and make sure that he is not developing weapons of mass destruction and it my desire is to help the Iraqi people, but they are not going to be helped …
Interviewer
But at the same time you are trying to put Iraq forever under American-British mandate. It is not a question of allowing them to buy food and so on. But they want to be free to have to sell their oil, to do whatever they want with it.
Prime Minister
Of course, do one thing which is to use that money to transgress the United Nations Security Council Resolution on developing weapons of mass destruction. That is our only quarrel with what is happening in Iraq and as I say we are prepared to ease that entire sanctions regime, although he can already get billions of dollars if he wants to, to spend on food and medicine, but we are prepared to ease that regime provided he is prepared to give proper guarantees he won’t develop these weapons of mass destruction. Now as to your other point ….
Interviewer
I’m sorry, our viewers would like to hear from you. You always talk about weapons of mass destruction as if Iraq is the only country which has had weapons of mass destruction. What about Israel? They have weapons of mass destruction. You don’t talk about that.
Prime Minister
Yes, but in respect of Iraq, once Iraq had invaded Kuwait - tried to unlawfully occupy Kuwait, take Kuwait into Iraq - there was a series of United Nations resolutions, and there was a weapons inspection regime that came up as a result of that. Now, all that we are saying is that we have to make sure that he is not able to develop those weapons of mass destruction in breach of the UN Security Council Resolution. Now if I can just deal with the point you make on Afghanistan, because I think it is fair point.
Interviewer
What about the Israeli weapons of mass destruction. Atomic bombs, and what have you.
Prime Minister
Those should be subject, in exactly the same way. We of course must make sure that in exactly the same way as we are saying that the United Nations Security Council Resolutions have to be abided by in relation to Iraq, that applies in the weapons regime in what the UN Security Council said applies in respect of any country. But the fact is that in respect of Iraq there are specific resolutions actually directed to the weapons of mass destruction programme that Saddam Hassan has. And that is the reason why we have acted. But there are billions of dollars. It is important that your listeners and viewers know this. There are billions of dollars that Saddam Hussain could use for food and medicine for his people, but chooses not to.
Now, on Afghanistan, I think you make a fair point. I would say, if you don’t mind me pointing this out, I wasn’t actually in government at the time, but the point that you make is a fair one. That is precisely why we have got to make sure, both with the humanitarian help we give Afghanistan at the moment, and then at the end of this conflict, make sure that the successor regime to the Taliban, if that is what comes about, is broad-based, includes all ethnic groupings and tries to give that country a decent and stable future so that we don’t walk away from it as we did last time.
Interviewer
So in other words who gives you the right to change or topple the government in another country.
Prime Minister
It shouldn’t be us who that puts together the new government. It should be
the people of Afghanistan, inside Afghanistan and those that have had to flee from Afghanistan. And I think that is the right way to do it.
Now, can I say I have enjoyed very much doing this interview with you and I think that whatever differences there are between us, it is important that we carry on with this dialogue. Maybe one of the problems that arises out of all this is that there has been insufficient dialogue between the Arab world and the West , between Islam and between people of other faiths. And I hope that we can establish a proper dialogue and maybe that would be some good that could emerge out of the terrible events of the 11th of September.
Interviewer
A personal question Mr Blair, at the end. I know that you have so many meetings, and people are waiting outside. I have read, I think in The Times, that you read about Islam. What do you know about Islam?
Prime Minister
Well, I do not in any shape or form pretend to be an expert, but I do read….
Interviewer
What do you read? What interests you?
Prime Minister
I read the message of the Koran, insofar as it can be translated. And I read about Islam and I enjoy doing that. And I think that I have learned things about the Koran that I never knew before and I think a lot of Christians would be interested. That is one of the reasons that I say to you that it would be good if, out of this, we had some dialogue and some more faith, and the reason I have to leave you now is because I am going to meet some religious leaders, both Moslem and Christian and Jewish upstairs in order to discuss with them how we can bring the faiths closer together.
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