8 June 2006
Tony Blair answered a wide range of questions during his monthly press conference, held inside Number 10. Subjects included the health service, climate change, nuclear power and knife culture. The PM also spoke about the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq.
Parts of this transcript may have been edited
Opening statement
Tony Blair:
Hello everyone. Welcome to the monthly press conference. I was going to start by giving you a detailed exposition of the National Health Service reforms, but I think for obvious reasons two important things have happened: first of all the death of al-Zarqawi, and also the Iraqi Prime Minister’s decision to nominate his Defence and Interior Ministers and so complete his government, the first ever fully elected government of Iraq.
I would like to start by paying tribute to the new Iraqi government and to its Prime Minister, to the US, the UK and other allied forces, including those of Iraq, and to the intelligence services that are working so hard to allow the Iraqi people what they so clearly want and have voted for - democracy and the chance to prosper in the future, to escape both from the past legacy of Saddam and the present evil of terrorism.
Every day we hear of the death toll through the fomenting of civil strife, a campaign of murder and kidnapping and brutality, all of it designed to stifle Iraqi democracy at birth, and al-Zarqawi was its most vicious persecutor. The death of al-Zarqawi is a strike against Al Qaeda in Iraq, and therefore a strike against Al Qaeda everywhere. But we should have no illusions. We know that they will continue to kill, we know that there are many, many obstacles to overcome. But they also know that our determination to defeat them is total, their methods, their ideas, their extremism that seeks to infect the overwhelming desire of the overwhelming majority of people, whatever their religion and whatever their nation, to live together in peace and harmony.
So I do not minimise the enormous challenges that remain in Iraq and elsewhere, but the election of the new government and its full formation today shows a new spirit to succeed, and our task obviously is to turn that spirit, that willingness and desire to succeed into effective action. If we are able to do so then we will have accomplished something that goes far beyond the borders of Iraq. I have long argued, as you know, that whatever the debate over the original decision to remove Saddam, for the past three years since his removal a struggle of a different nature has taken shape.
In Iraq and in Afghanistan al Qaeda has taken a stand. They know that if progress and democracy take root in those two previously failed and terrorised states, then their values of violence and hatred against those who disagree with them will in turn be uprooted. That is why they have fought, and why they will continue to fight very hard. But it is also why we should fight back, and do so as a unified international community, putting behind us the divisions of the past, and uniting under the UN mandate in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
For three years Al Qaeda have sought to murder innocent people, promote sectarian killing and wreck the democratic process in Iraq. This terrorism is a global movement. Their attack in Iraq has only ever been part of a wider attack that they have carried into conflicts and countries the world over, indeed there is barely a major nation in the world that has not felt the outreach of their evil. So defeat them in Iraq and we will defeat them everywhere. We need to do so, armed of course with weapons, but also with one simple idea, that where people want to live in freedom and be governed by democracy, they should be able to do so and the world should stand united behind them. In Iraq today that idea has shown its worth.
Now if you don’t mind I will also just say a few words about the domestic agenda. First of all on the Health Service, the Acting Chief Executive of the NHS, Sir Ian Curruthers, laid out his report yesterday. I just want to draw attention to two things that he said. First of all he said: "Contrary to what our critics claim, reform is not the reason for the overspend or the job losses, it is the solution. The reforms are introducing greater financial transparency, in some cases uncovering problems hidden for years. I think it is important that we realise this process of reform in the Health Service is vast, it is effectively a revolution in the National Health Service, it has been going on for some time and will continue for some time more, but it is absolutely necessary." He then went on to say it is essential that we continue to press ahead with the reforms, but he made this important point as well, that at the same time as the reforms are being introduced, we will continue to deliver improved outcomes. As he said, waiting times are shorter than ever, most people who need surgery are in hospital within 9 weeks, 4 out of 5 people get a first out-patient appointment within 8 weeks, and almost everyone going to Accident and Emergency is seen within 4 hours. Meanwhile we are seeing lives being saved through reductions in death from cancer, coronary heart disease and suicide. Investment has made a big difference to stroke services, diabetes, mental health and the care of the elderly.
So the picture I think in the National Health Service is there is a tremendous challenge in the year ahead to make sure that the reforms are seen through, but the outcome will be better healthcare and better healthcare delivered according to the values of the National Health Service, ie free at the point of use, irrespective of wealth.
In addition of course we have to turn the Pensions White Paper into a reality and put the framework in legislation; in schools to get a critical mass of Trust Schools and City Academies; and of course, as we know from the past couple of months, in relation to the Home Office to make sure that it is indeed, both the criminal justice system and the Immigration Department fit the challenges of the 21st century. And then there is welfare reform, energy and the environment. So there is a lot to be going on with.
Question and Answer session
Question:
Prime Minister, a staggering 1,200 people a month are dying in Baghdad alone, do you really believe that the death of one man today will change that?
Tony Blair:
This isn’t going to change with the death of al-Zarqawi. We shouldn’t have any illusions about this. However, the reason people have been dying in Iraq is because of the activities of al Qaeda and other people who want to use terrorism against the wishes of the Iraqi people for democracy. And if we defeat al Qaeda in Iraq, we will defeat them everywhere, exactly the same as if we defeat them in Afghanistan we will defeat them everywhere. It is a global movement and it has focused on Iraq because they know that if Iraqi democracy succeeds, they fail. So I am not as I say minimising the challenges that lie ahead, they are absolutely huge, but it is significant that you have a properly formed Iraqi government, directly elected, and the death of the leading perpetrator of this violence in Iraq. So of course there is a long, long way to go.
Question:
You have been heard to hail critical days in Iraq’s history - the arrest of Saddam, constitutions, referendums, governments. They come and go and each time the killing goes on unchanged.
Tony Blair:
Yes, but each time the progress is also there, because at every single stage of this you have got a country whose people are showing by their voting that they want to live in a democracy. And of course when those who are opposed to democracy and liberty fight us, we have got to fight back. And what I have always said about this is whatever people think about the original decision to remove Saddam, I mean that happened now three years ago, our forces, American forces, other forces have been there with a full UN mandate, with the consent of the Iraqi government, to do one thing, and that is stand with the Iraqi people in their desire for democracy. That desire is beyond dispute. This is a country that wants to live governed by a democracy and our task is to stick with them. And yes of course there have been many times in the past when we have looked upon these events and hoped that they will secure the future. We have got to stick with though the very basic thing that has happened in Iraq over these past few years, which is the decision of the people to have a democracy, the election now and the formation of the first ever democratic government, and let’s stand behind them.
Question:
Could you just tell us, if you can, a little bit more about how he was captured? There is a suggestion that Jordanian intelligence was involved, that the $25 million award was important. I know it is a sensitive subject, but is there any more you can tell us? And secondly, can you give us some idea of how important you think he was to the insurgency, how much central leadership was there, how much of what we see day by day in Iraq was down to him and his leadership?
Tony Blair:
In respect of the first, I don’t think there is anything more I can say at this stage, although I hope some more details of it will be given later, but I haven’t heard either of those two particular things you just mentioned there. But there has been very close cooperation of course between everyone, the Iraqis, the coalition, intelligence services and so on. Well the fact is al-Zarqawi was the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, and Al Qaeda in Iraq have been the people who have been most prominent in some of the most vicious brutality, the kidnappings, the sectarian murders, the suicide bombs, the car bombs. And therefore the elimination of the leader is important, but there will be others that will continue to fight. The important thing however is that there is a tremendous sense of determination on the part of the Iraq government as well as the coalition forces to defeat him, and defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq. And as I keep saying, I think the really important thing is that there is a reason why Al Qaeda focus so much attention and so much of their energy and commitment on Iraq, because for them it is the worst thing that could happen to their global movement is that people in a country like Iraq, as in Afghanistan, turn round and say actually we don’t want sectarianism, we want people to live in harmony with each other. So it is obviously significant for that reason.
Question:
… was he a figurehead in your view, or an administrative day to day leader of much of the insurgency?
Tony Blair:
I don’t think there is any doubt that he was a hands on leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, no I don’t think there is any doubt about that, but there is no doubt also that there will be other people who will want to carry on the killing. But no, there is no doubt about the role that he played, he wasn’t a figurehead.
Question:
Do you rule yourself out as running for the next Secretary General of the United Nations, and who do you agree with - John Bolton or Mr Malloch Brown - as to whether the American government is misrepresenting the United Nations to its voters?
Tony Blair:
On the first, certainly not for me.
Question:
So you don’t rule yourself out?
Tony Blair:
No, I am very happy doing the job I am doing thank you very much and I am not going for the UN job, no. Secondly, in relation to the dispute, I am afraid I haven’t really caught up with what the two of them have been saying.
Question:
Well the suggestion is the United States and the United Nations actually work together very well, but that is something that the administration is reluctant to reveal to its voters, choosing to use the UN as a whipping boy.
Tony Blair:
Yes, well it’s probably as well I haven’t caught up with it then.
Question:
Prime Minister, in principle do you think it is the right idea to tax activities that lead to global warming, so should we be paying more for our petrol, should we be paying more for our airline tickets? In principle, do you think it is right to go down that road?
Tony Blair:
Well I think that there is a case, I mean we have done this with the climate change levy, saying that you want to encourage environmentally beneficial behaviour, but you have got to get it in some sort of framework that is sensible. [party political content]
Question:
You don’t think consumers have to face the fact that they are going to have to pay more tax for those sorts of activities?
Tony Blair:
Well I think consumers already do in the sense that you know we give all sorts of encouragements for people to engage in more environmentally beneficial behaviour, and I think we should carry on doing so. But there is a balance between encouraging the right behaviour and doing what is sensible, and the idea that you could fund massive direct tax cuts through this, well I don’t know, you can have a debate about it but it just strikes me as completely unrealistic. And in the end with this business about tax and spending, what everybody in politics always searches for is the sort of alchemy as a solution to these problems, in other words that you can say we can cut your taxes dramatically and spend more money at the same time.
It never quite works like that when you are actually in government, and although of course governments should be vigorous to try and cut out waste and pursue efficiency, in the end there is no way we could have made huge investments in schools and hospitals, and things like extra numbers of police and community support officers, and pursued you know massive cuts in income tax at the same time. You just can’t do it. And the idea that you can have some sort of nice cuddly environmental tax that is going to yield you huge gains on basic rate income tax, forget it, not unless you are prepared to do something that would I think squeeze people pretty hard. And the danger of doing anything with airlines of too dramatic a nature is that you would just find they would start re-routing elsewhere or refuelling elsewhere, I don’t know, but they would find a million ways round it.
Question:
Prime Minister, last week you praised the police and said it was right that they should be supported when they do raids like the one they carried out in east London, acting on information under difficult circumstances. Can you take this opportunity to explain to British soldiers who you are sending to extremely dangerous terrifying situations which you and I wouldn’t put ourselves in, and they feel that they are being unfairly persecuted whilst they are basically trying to do their job?
Tony Blair:
Well as I said yesterday in the House, and let me repeat, I am delighted at the acquittals there were the other day, and I hope everybody understands that British troops are in an incredibly difficult situation when they are in hostile territory. They do a fantastic job for this country and we should give them every support. I would just point out, as I have repeatedly done, that the decisions to prosecute are not taken by me.
Question:
Prime Minister, Jack Straw, before he moved on from being Foreign Secretary, and yourself have worked for an engagement with Iran for some considerable time. The Americans have been resistant to an engagement right up until last week. What role would you say that your government has played in changing American minds, and does Condaleeza Rice’s victory in this matter in changing the policy represent to you a sign that perhaps the neo-conservative forces in play in Washington may finally be in retreat?
Tony Blair:
Well first of all, look I don’t think there is any point in getting into the details of what representations were made by me or anyone else. All I think is that it is very sensible for America to say that provided there is the suspension of the enrichment process then they are willing to enter into direct talks with Iran and join the Europeans in that. I think that is a big step forward, it indicates that America wants to find a diplomatic solution to this, and I can only say to you that in every discussion I have ever had with the President about Iran it has always been clear that although he is determined, as he should be, to prevent the acquisition of nuclear weapons capability by Iran, he nonetheless wants and believes a diplomatic solution can be found. And if we are able, I don’t know, apparently the President of Iran has also made some comments today, if we are able to find a way through this that would be all to the better and it would show also an international community coming together on a common basis, which would be good for the future.
Question:
But Jack Straw has pursued, this has been a possibility for 5 or 6 years. Why haven’t we done it before? Is it simply because of American resistance?
Tony Blair:
No, it has not really been because of that, it has been a very, very strong process, I mean France, Germany and the UK have been working really well on this together. There has been a whole set of negotiations with the Iranians, with the Atomic Energy Authority, with others, and I think all of us have felt it is right now to come together and make a clear offer to Iran and say look we want to find a diplomatic solution to this, there is one on offer, we understand why you may want to develop civil nuclear power but we do not want a situation where that is used to threaten the outside world. And look there is a very simple choice going on right round the Middle East at the moment, and you can see this very, very clearly indeed, and some of the most interesting things happening in the Middle East are the things that don’t get any publicity at all.
For example in Kuwait where recently they took the decision to allow women to vote; where in other countries they are changing their constitutions in the Gulf states in order to engage in greater democracy; in some of the changes that have, albeit with a lot of difficulties, been happening in places like Egypt. There are two visions of the future going on in the Middle East at the moment: one is where people reach for democracy and government by democracy, not as a western value but as a universal value; and the other is where there is sectarianism, and terrorism, and attempting to resolve issues through violence and conflict. And I think in respect of Iran, people realise there is the possibility of managing to get a diplomatic solution to this and people want that if at all possible.
Question:
On Iraq, isn’t there a danger that with the formation of the new government the violence will actually increase rather than decrease as the insurgents try to test the new government? And if that happens, aren’t people right to conclude that we are losing this war, not winning it?
Tony Blair:
No, you see I think that people have got to try to get into a different mindset on this, and I understand entirely why, for all the reasons to do with the conflict over the war and the disagreements that there were, why this is difficult to achieve. But let us accept it as a given that the Iraqi people have demonstrated they want to live in a democracy, and let us accept it as a given that contrary to what people thought, most people in Iraq don’t want sectarian conflict. How do we know that? Because the Sunnis, the Shias and the Kurds have all elected politicians who are all now in a coalition government. So, take those two things as given.
The third thing that is a given is that there are people however, a minority, on the extremes in Iraq, Al Qaeda, who want to disrupt that process. Now our mindset has tended to be in a large part of western opinion up to now that if things are terrible, if there is a daily toll of bloodshed in Iraq that means we shouldn’t be there. My answer to that is to turn that 180 degrees round the other way and say if those two things are a given - namely the Iraqi people want democracy and they want a non-sectarian future - why isn’t our job, when these terrorists attack those two concepts that we believe in, why isn’t it our job to stand with the democrats against the terrorists? And therefore if it is difficult, that is not a reason for becoming defeatist, it is a reason for redoubling our efforts to win. And of course it will be, you are right, there will be fierce attempts with the formation of the government, with the death of al-Zarqawi to fight back, but what do we do in those circumstances? Do we just walk away and say well OK since you are fighting us really hard for all the things we don’t believe in and are the wrong things, we are going to refuse to fight for the things that are right and we do believe in? This is why I think whatever the struggle in Iraq was, what it is about today is something very profound indeed.
Question:
(inaudible) you have said before that they have a very difficult job to do, or any number of jobs, that you quite respect some of the people who are in senior positions there. But by now you will have had quite a few reports about what has gone wrong, and I wonder what your status report on it is, is it morale, calibre, lack of management? How long is it going to take to turn around and when are you going to feel able to trust the figures, the statistics that come out of it, let alone see it as a normal functioning department?
Tony Blair:
Well some of you may recall, and I think I said it when David Blunkett was Home Secretary, that being Home Secretary is the toughest job in government, and that is for a very, very simple reason actually. In most public service areas, if you are the Secretary of State for Health, most patients want to get better, most nurses and doctors want to help, if you are Secretary of State for Education most pupils and parents want to get good results. When you are the Home Secretary your client base, if I can put it like that, is actually trying to do the opposite, they are trying to stop you doing the things that you are trying to do. And my view of this is very clear, because actually there has been a lot of progress in many areas, for example in the asylum system which, whatever people say, is a world away from what we inherited in 1997.
However, the fact is that the Home Office has been subject to huge change as a result of globalisation, massive migration across the world, Kofi Annan was talking yesterday about 200 million migrants at any one time on the move, and also the break-up of traditional family life, community life, traditional communities operating in different ways, and so crime is of a different nature from what it was 30, 40, 50 years ago, certainly 50 years ago. The result of that is that you have got a system where there is just a big gap between what people need to do in the early 21st century and what the system is, which is basically the of 19th, 20th century part of the traditional Home Office that has been there for a long period of time.
Now we are changing it, but I have said over the past few weeks and before all this stuff blew up in the Home Office and everything, I was saying then there is a fundamental set of questions in a debate we have to have in this country if we want to tackle this, because I believe you can tackle it, but only if you are prepared to take what are really quite tough measures. That is why it is completely absurd to say you are in favour of tackling illegal migration but against identity cards and a national register of identity. You are never going to do it, there is no way you are going to be able to do it, or you are against electronic borders which means literally checking everybody who comes in and out of the country.
If you want to tackle antisocial behaviour the ordinary law and order system is not going to tackle it, you are going to have to give summary powers to the police at the frontline. If you want to tackle organised crime then we have to take the Proceeds of Crime Act, which was opposed and watered down, actually diluted as it went through the Houses of Parliament, and you are going to have to strengthen it so that for organised criminals, even without convictions, you are able to open up people’s bank accounts, seize their assets, force them to prove that they came by them lawfully, a whole set of things that would be contrary to the normal principles that we have operated. Now my view is that is the only way it will work. If you think you are going to have the ordinary criminal justice system tackling these issues, well on the basis of my experience over the last 9 years, forget it, it won’t happen. You will make improvements but there will still be an enormous gap between what the public expect this service to do and what it actually does.
Question:
So why don’t you build more prisons then?
Tony Blair:
Well we are, there are 17,000 more prison places since we came to power. Again you know the facts, and this is what is strange about the way this debate happens, is that I am in a situation, as you probably know, where I have been banging on about this for a very long time, and as I say there are lots of things that have happened, there are more prison places, sentences are longer, sentences are actually tougher, contrary to public imagination. But if you took where the public is on this issue, I mean I might be there, there are a lot of people who are here, and the public are way out on the other side, and that is because the gap between what they expect and what they get is bigger in this service than any other and we have got to try to bridge that. But you won’t bridge it just by tough talk on law and order, and you will have to take measures that certainly are very different from the measures we have traditionally taken.
Question:
You say you are taking measures …
Tony Blair:
George, this is turning into an interview, but I will let you go. One more. That is a very smart suit you are wearing.
Question:
Thank you very much. We read all the time that the Home Office and the Prison Service are taking steps right now to prepare for releasing people who are serving sentences less than a year long, to make space for more people because the jail system is currently overcrowded. Now you have been in power for 9 years, prison clearly works because the crime levels go down when more people are in jail.
Tony Blair:
And it cannot be a reason for letting someone out of prison that there are pressures on prison places, which is why we are having to expand them again. But this is where, if people really want to take these measures it is going to mean that for example if you are someone who breaches their bail, then prima facie they should be going to prison if they do that. But these are difficult things, and what we are going to do is we will outline these proposals and plans, which will build on what is there already, at the end of July and then we will see whether the Houses of Parliament actually back them or not. (party political content).
Question:
Prime Minister, the key measure of progress in Iraq will surely be a diminution in the number of civilian deaths in sectarian violence. You are suggesting that the death of al-Zarqawi will not in itself make any significant contribution to that, so what are the practical steps that are needed now to bring down those totals of deaths, particularly at a time when so many people in official uniforms aren’t trusted, and when the political factions have all got their own militias. And secondly, Zarqawi is now dead, what hope do you hold out of the capture or killing one day of Osama bin Laden?
Tony Blair:
I don’t think I have really got anything to add on Osama bin Laden. I don’t think I said it wouldn’t make a significant contribution.
Question:
You did.
Tony Blair:
No, I don’t think I did. No of course it is significant, what I am saying is it is not of itself going to end it, but of course it is significant. In respect of the measurement though, yes of course in the end the measure of progress in Iraq is that the stable democracy that the country wants is there, and we are in the course of fighting for it. But I think what those factions coming together, and the different groupings coming together in government, and also the appointment of the Defence and Interior Ministers today, Defence for example who I think is from the Sunni community. What that shows is that their desire is indeed to have a non-sectarian future. And I am not minimising the problems at all, but I think those two steps are indeed significant and I think you will find in the weeks to come the new government producing proposals for example for security in Baghdad, for security down in Basra, for the overall framework for the Iraq security forces and the multinational force. And so I think already there is a sense that this government is gripping things, and I don’t know whether you felt the same as me, when I was in Baghdad a couple of weeks ago, and then again with the press conference of the Prime Minister today, this government has just to me a different and significantly different feel about it.
Question:
And bin Laden?
Tony Blair:
I don’t know, Robin, I have got nothing to say.
Question:
You talked earlier about nuclear power coming back up the agenda with a vengeance, and I was wondering whether you think it is possible to build a new set of nuclear power stations with the kind of extended planning inquiries that we have had before the construction of places like Sizewell B? And secondly, how can a government set a regulatory framework that acknowledges the low carbon contribution of some nuclear power stations?
Tony Blair:
Well I don’t think I can say much more on the planning system, but I think it is very important to emphasise, because I think there is a misunderstanding maybe in parts of the public here. I am talking about replacing our existing nuclear power capability, because if we don’t then over the next few years we are going to see a dramatic reduction. So sometimes this argument is put as if here am I saying right let’s increase dramatically the amount of nuclear power we have. That is not the issue, the issue is over the next 15 years 20% of the electricity that we get in this country that comes from nuclear is going to decline to virtually nothing. So the question is, are you going to be able to make that up from other sources? And we are already planning to make a big push on renewables, we are already planning a major push on energy efficiency, and therefore to me it is very difficult to see how you are going to be able to have a secure energy supply in the future unless you are replacing at least the nuclear power stations that are going to be decommissioned. So I can’t tell what the planning system is going to be yet, and that is something that obviously the Energy Review will look at, but that is the heart of the issue, it is whether you replace these ones.
Question:
Prime Minister, the Independent today has given details of how women in the Basra area feel that they are being intimidated by the fanatics, some of them are being assassinated, some are being even driven off the road for driving cars. You may feel damned if you do, damned if you don’t, but they say that Britain should have done more in Basra to stop this happening. Have you got anything to say about that? And on the domestic front, on the Home Office, I think the figures for 2008 onwards to 2011 for the budget for the Home Office are pretty steady. Are you going to look at those figures again, because I think you will be needing an increase?
Tony Blair:
Well on the Home Office budget, that is something which will be decided in the course of the Comprehensive Spending Review. In respect of women in Basra, there will be fanatics who will try to do this, and I think the most important thing is to get the Iraq force capability in Basra and elsewhere and deal with some of the sectarian problems that there have been down there. But you know sometimes you get the impression, particularly after some of the recent incidents, that people in Basra want the British troops out, as you rightly imply. Actually what they want is security, both from the coalition and from the Iraqi forces. And the team that Prime Minister Maliki has appointed and is down there now, I hope within the next few weeks will produce a plan for making Basra more secure. You know one of the things that Anne Clwyd will tell you about, who has just been to Iraq and has just come back from there, and talked to all Iraqi women MPs, is they’re absolutely determined that the considerable advances that they have seen in the past 2 or 3 years, and the ability of women to take part in the political process, are deepened. And I think it was interesting that when the programme of the new Iraqi government was published, equality for women and respect for women was right at the forefront of it.
Question:
Two-thirds of voters say that they think John Prescott should resign from the Cabinet, and he has completely lost credibility with his parliamentary and Cabinet colleagues. So what is he still doing there? Is it just because you want to avoid an early Deputy Leadership election?
Tony Blair:
No, he is doing what Deputy Prime Ministers have often done, which is to be a support for the Prime Minister in the way that we have described. And I am afraid you can’t really decide these things according to the opinion polls.
Question:
In these days of devolution in health and education, do you believe that English voters will be enthusiastic, or even tolerate, an MP for a Scottish constituency being Prime Minister of the UK and deciding their health and education policies?
Tony Blair:
Yes, because we are the United Kingdom, and you have got someone who is Scottish in charge of the Home Office at the moment. And my experience has always been that people here, like people everywhere, decide it according to who is going to do the best job for them.
Question:
Is Jack Straw right to predict, as he does in today’s Spectator, that you will be gone well before the next election? (Party Political content)
Tony Blair:
Well if you don’t mind, I think I have said all I intend to say on this subject, as I indicated in an interview a couple of days ago. I think the most important thing for us as a government is to get on with the job. That is what people expect.
Question:
Just to go back to nuclear power and devolution, you talked about replacing existing nuclear power stations. Several reactor stations are currently in Scotland, the final say as far as we understand it on replacing them will actually rest with the Scottish Executive which has said that it is currently opposed to replacing those reactors. Without going into the question of devolution, obviously you will say that … the way the system works, does that mean that your Energy Review therefore has to contain a contingency plan for how you will make up the lost power from the Scottish reactors if the Scottish Executive continues to oppose their being replaced? And do you have to have a Plan B for Scotland continuing to say No to nuclear power?
Tony Blair:
I think that you just have to look at this overall and in the round. And I think what you will find when the Energy Review is published is that there will be big sections on things like renewables and energy efficiency as well as simply nuclear power. Also, when I met the business leaders on climate change the other day, this is the issue that is now being driven right across the world as much by business as it is by civic society or political leaders. It was remarkable to sit at a table with some of the major multinational companies in this country, including companies like Shell, and to be told by them that they want a strong lead from government on developing low carbon solutions to the problems that we have.
And what is basically happening round the world today, which is why energy policy will be probably the major thing that we discuss at the Anglo-French Summit later this week, is that people are facing rising energy costs, and therefore worries about security and cost of supply, and also the issue of climate change. Now I think in the end everything will go in the mix on this, but what we have got to try to work for is a situation where this country has a strong leadership position as a showcase if you like for the best practice, but then we are getting other countries around the world to join with us. And the best thing that could possibly happen is that at the October conference in Mexico, where the G8 Plus 5 will meet under the process set up by Gleneagles, is that we get a major step forward in the science and technology that is going to be developed for this worldwide. But I think whether it is for the UK or Scotland, people will just want to look at this in the round.
Question:
The Spanish construction company is bidding for British Airports Authority. The previous Conservative government I remember was much criticised for selling off the family silver when it privatised industries. Does your government think there is anything, whether it is Russia wanting to buy into the British Gas utilities, do you think there are any utilities or any companies which should remain in British hands and should not be taken over, or is it a complete free for all? And just finally is your tie and shirt this morning a carefully colour co-ordinated signal to the English team, it seems rather like the colours of the Cross of St George?
Tony Blair:
Do you know that really had not occurred to me, no actually it hadn’t. But, yes, you expect to see two flags here at the rostrum? In respect of takeovers, the test I apply is for the consumer, and the consumer in my view benefits from basically there being in the private sector a free market. So you know you can argue forever about whether it was right or wrong to privatise various companies, but if they are in the private sector the best thing for the consumer is the best possible management. Now I am not in a position to judge that, the shareholders are probably in a better position. Now I am not saying there can’t be circumstances in which other considerations come into it, but for me essentially it is what is the best deal for the British consumer, and I think all the evidence is that if government starts interfering in this process and trying to call politics over it, you don’t succeed for the consumer.
Question:
… what are you expecting of England?
Tony Blair:
What am I expecting of England? Well I wish them all the best and hope they will win, and in particular in the match against Paraguay on Saturday. I think that is pretty obvious.
Question:
Do you think they have got a chance of actually winning the World Cup?
Tony Blair:
… Of course they have, we have got a really strong squad. Anyway I wish them well.
Question:
Last week you met the new Italian Prime Minister, Mr Prodi, and he let you know the willingness of his government to withdraw Italian troops from Iraq. Of course there will, I understand, be some technical follow-up and discussion among the Ministries of Defence and so on, but it is a fact that the Italian troops are in the British area, and it is a fact they will withdraw, and it is a fact you have to fill the gap in some way. What will you do?
Tony Blair:
Yes, there will be no doubt discussions, I think there are going to be discussions between the Italian Defence Minister and the British Defence Minister, and of course we respect the position of the Italian government but we want to manage the situation in a way that causes the minimum risk to security in Iraq, and I am sure that will happen. And I had a very good discussion with Prime Minister Prodi on that subject when I met him last week.
Question:
Major chemical firms on Teesside have told the DTI that they are ready and eager to part-finance a replacement nuclear power station on Teesside because they are worried about gas and electricity supply. Would you encourage them to keep knocking on the door? And secondly you punched the air with glee when Britain won the 2012 Olympics. The Northern Echo, on your patch, wants to run a campaign called Olympic Dream, which will use the inspiration of 2012 to encourage more young people to take part in sport. One problem is the organising committee of 2012 says nobody can use the word Olympic unless they are a paid-up sponsor. More than 50 MPs have said this is ludicrous and asked the government to intervene. Are they right?
Tony Blair:
I think I had better look into that one. But you are not allowed to use the term Olympic Dream, are you not?
Question:
Correct. The organising committee says only paid-up sponsors can use the term Olympic.
Tony Blair:
Now if this was anybody else but the Northern Echo I would be unsympathetic, but since you are my local newspaper I will look into it for you and see if I can get you an answer on it. OK?
On your first question, yes they should continue to make their case to us because what is going to be happening is that much of our business and industry will be saying look we can see what is happening to gas costs around the world, what are you guys going to do to allow us to protect ourselves against rising energy costs? So yes I do think that is going to be an important part of why we have got to look at all these issues.
Because you know sometimes when you talk about these decisions people will say well why do you have to go and take this decision about energy now? The fact is unless we plan for it now you could find a situation with someone else standing here, and probably someone else sitting there in 15 - 20 years time, people are going to say what on earth were they doing when they could see what was going to happen to the future energy requirements of the country and they didn’t prepare for it. It is why these decisions have got to be taken now. And business and industry, they have gone from a situation, I saw some businesses myself just a short time ago, not from the north east but from Scotland in fact, which are saying to us: look, a few years ago energy costs weren’t a major factor for us, it is now making us uncompetitive for some of the tough competition we are facing in the rest of the world. So they were certainly, and I think reasonably representatively urging us to get on with it.
Question:
Teesside is not hugely populated … in Britain, does that make it an ideal place to start?
Tony Blair:
Well I think you have just got to judge that according to the merits of the case really. I wouldn’t want to prejudge it.
Question:
Would Jack Straw make a good Deputy Prime Minister, or would you rather see a woman, when John Prescott does stand down?
Tony Blair:
I would rather see an end to my having to answer the question, to be frank about it if you don’t mind. And so I am not going to fuel any more speculation on that.
Question:
Zarqawi clearly was the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Who at this point do you think are the other major sponsors of terrorism in Iraq, and roughly how do you plan to go about dealing with those other individuals or groups?
Tony Blair:
I mean I can’t be sure, but I think essentially what has happened in Iraq, and to an extent the same is true in Afghanistan, is that every bad element that doesn’t want democracy to succeed in those countries is going to meddle in them. And the best way of defeating them is to build up the Iraqi forces, to have our own forces there as long as the Iraqi government wishes them there in order to support the Iraqi force capability, but also to fight them politically with the idea that if people want to live in a democracy they should be free to do so.
And I think that that is the strongest pitch that we have, and the best thing that could happen is that we, as I said earlier, and I really believe this very, very strongly indeed, alter our mindset in the west which is when we receive a reverse or a setback we think this is a reason for not standing firm, on the contrary it is the reason for standing firm because there is a reason why Al Qaeda and al-Zarqawi decided to go and fight in Iraq. Al-Zarqawi went to Iraq obviously before Saddam fell. Why was he there? What was the point? Why has Al Qaeda invested so much time and effort to try to kill American, British, other forces, Iraqi civilians, totally innocent Iraqis on sectarian grounds? Why have they done all that?
Because what they want to do is to cause bloodshed and violence and tip the country into strife, and if they do that they think they can benefit because they gain from a situation where there is sectarian divide, that is what their ideology is based on, it is based on a sectarian view, not just of their own religion but of other religions too. So what is our response? Stand up and fight them back every time, and that is why we have got to be so strong in circumstances and not weak or defeatist when they come after us, because the fact is as you can see, and look I don’t know what will happen in the procedures in Canada the other day, but you saw from the arrests in Canada this is happening the world over, you know these people are trying, it is a global movement, it is an ideology, it has got roots in virtually every major country in the world. And the reason they have focused so much attention on Iraq is because of its importance to them, and it should be equally important to us therefore.
Question:
David Cameron said that some rap and hip-hop tracks that are played on Radio 1 glamorise knife and gun culture and contribute to the problem. What is your take on that? And talking of England in the World Cup, will we get a national holiday if England win?
Tony Blair:
Well let’s wait for that happy event. I have got nothing really to say on the records issue, other than it is important that people exercise responsibility.
Question:
He is arguing that some of the lyrics, if you ban some of these tracks it will help with the knife problem and the gun culture as well. Do you think that that would help?
Tony Blair:
I think, to be frank about it, I think there is a culture, of which that is a part, but I think the problem is more profound than that and I think it is to do with the environment in which some of these people are allowed to operate. And one of the reasons I feel so strongly that we need new measures against organised crime, against people who deal in drugs, against people who use this type of violence, which is really something quite different I think from anything I knew when I was growing up, I think the reason we need to destroy the environment of violence in which they live is because in the end some of the culture comes out of that environment, it is not the thing that gives rise to it.
Question:
Would you call for a ban, like he says he wants to?
Tony Blair:
I am really not going to get into that. I don’t really study what the individual tracks are and so on.
Question:
Prime Minister, you have said today that anyone who wants to live under democracy should be allowed to, and you made a very good speech, a very interesting speech in Washington a couple of weeks ago attacking the history of realpolitik of people just getting on with the government that is there. And then there is China, where people wanted democracy more than almost 20 years ago and the tanks were sent in, and you are engaging with them thoroughly. How do you square that?
Tony Blair:
We are engaging with them, and it is right to engage with them, but it is also right that part of that engagement is about political development. And I can assure you every time I meet the Chinese leadership that is a major part of the discussion I have with them. Now I believe, and this is what the Chinese leadership say, that they want to see that political development in China, and we should help in any way we can with that. So you will find different solutions in different ways, but I have no doubt at all that ultimately the most secure way of protecting our own way of life is through the spread of democracy and liberty.
And the point that I would make is this, because this is why I think this is so important today, is that everyone looks at globalisation in an economic or a technological sense, but actually there is a political process of globalisation going on at the same time, of which Al Qaeda are one dimension. Because they in a sense use the advent of globalisation, the fact of mass migration, technology and so on, they use those modern attributes of globalisation against us. And the way of protecting ourselves in the end is to develop insofar as we can everywhere the belief that there is a global set of values based on democracy and liberty that are the best way to our security. Now this will happen in different ways in different countries, but wherever it is happening we should support it.
Question:
On Lebanon and Syria, Prime Minister, the Belgian Judge says he will submit his report on the assassination of Mr Hariri to the United Nations Security Council next week. Where does your government stand on that? And what are your comments on the allegation made by the German author, Jurgen Kobol (phon), in a book he published recently and he accused the Israeli Mossad and the American CIA of plotting the assassination of the former Lebanese Prime Minister?
Tony Blair:
The CIA and Mossad? I think that is the usual conspiracy theories that do nothing but add nonsense to any discussion. No, the UN report will obviously back that process fully and it is important that those who were responsible for that assassination are brought to justice. But again, you know what are we talking about in the Lebanon, we are talking about the struggle of a country to achieve democracy and to be free to develop their own affairs in the way they want, and again we should be at their side helping them do it. And it is an interesting thing that you have got literally all over the Middle East, as I said a moment or two ago, you have got countries in a state of flux and struggle to try and get there, and we should be helping them. And the assassination of Rafiq Hariri was obviously designed to prevent that.
Question:
And a nuclear question. Could I just ask you whether you are encouraged by the fact that Iran has not rejected outright the proposals from the Permanent Security Council members and seems to be considering them?
Tony Blair:
Yes, I think it is good that they have given the proposals serious consideration, and they should do that, and they should know that all of us are seeking a diplomatic solution to this, and whether we can get one I think depends to an extent on them, but it is an indication I think of our good faith that the Americans have made this offer which is after all for the first time in a quarter of a century that they would be in direct talks with Iran, and that is what Iran has constantly sought. So we should be able to manage this process properly.
Question:
Prime Minister, a question on Iran. There are at the same time many indications that Iran may not accept the preconditions to come to the negotiating table. What would be your government’s next step initiative if Iran doesn’t agree to suspend its uranium enrichment?
Tony Blair:
Well let us wait and see if that happens, but they should realise that obviously this was something that was discussed amongst those who have been closely involved in this before the Americans made their offer, and everyone agreed that that was the right basis upon which it should be made - namely that the enrichment is suspended and then the Americans join the talks, and I think it is possible others could come in on the back of that too. So I hope very much that they do not reject it because if they do it will cause a lot of difficulty.
Question:
With the referendum being offered by Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas appearing to reject any proposals towards peace, what would you see is the likely way forward? Do you see any indications from Hamas they are prepared to move their policies? Secondly, you will have Israel’s Prime Minister here next week, is he right to offer talks but to take a programme for peace which would provide Israel’s security if he has no negotiating partner? And can you confirm that George Brown’s - not Gordon - interpretation of UN Resolution 242 allows for Israel to make minor border adjustments in 1967, rather than returning as Syria and Hamas want Israel to go back to the old 1967 borders?
Tony Blair:
Right?
Question:
Inaudible.
Tony Blair:
Well he was indeed a Labour Party Deputy Leader. No, I haven’t really caught up with that particular one so no I can’t really comment on that. But I am seeing the Israeli Prime Minister on Monday. I think it is very clear, this is again why it is so important to view the Middle East as a whole, that the view of everybody I talk to in the Middle East, and I don’t just mean Israeli politicians, I mean politicians from any Arab country there, is that they want a solution in which the security of Israel is guaranteed and the Palestinians have their own state. Everybody wants to achieve that. And for Hamas the question is quite simple, are you going to be part of that, or are you going to prevent it happening by continuing to advocate something that Hamas must in their heart know will never happen, which is the disappearance of Israel. So that is the question, and we will do everything we can to facilitate those Palestinians who want a Palestinian, an independent viable Palestinian state, based on a negotiated solution. We will support them, but a negotiated solution is two states.
And as I have constantly underlined, you can’t have a negotiation to create two states if one side to the negotiation is saying they want to remove the other state. It is for obvious reasons a non sequitur. So we will try to do that and I look forward to discussing it with the Israeli Prime Minister next week. But it formed a large part of the discussion I had with President Bush when I was in Washington and I am optimistic that we can get a process that will allow this to be taken forward, but the absolute precondition is that everybody accepts that the purpose of the negotiation is two states, and if everyone accepts that we can make progress, we can actually make progress extremely quickly in my view.
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