27 June 2006
Tony Blair met with a selection of magazine editors for a special question and answer session in the State Dining Room of Number 10.
Parts of this transcript may have been edited
Read the Q and A
Question:
On the magazine we are running a campaign against excess packaging because of all the goods, especially food products, that we feel are over-packaged, and we are calling for a 10p tax on plastic bags, mainly as a symbol of how wasteful it is to have so much over-packaging. Because the life of a plastic bag is 20 minutes and each of us are given 167 a year and a tax has been introduced in the south of Ireland, unfortunately not in the north, where I am from, and overnight it reduced the use of plastic bags by 90%, and Scotland are considering it. And we think if you introduced it overnight you could reclaim all the green credentials that David Cameron is trying to steal.
Tony Blair:
So that is helpful political advice. I have to say that the line on this is we have no plans to introduce such a tax. Look you obviously keep all these things under consideration, the question is whether it would work or not, it is important that we look at the evidence from Ireland, but it is also important that we take into account the views of consumers as well. I think there is a lot of work however we are doing with some of the main supermarkets and others in order to try to reduce the packaging and therefore to protect the environment, but we do not at present have any plans to introduce a plastic bag tax.
Question:
I am aware there is a range of interest groups here, so I would like to ask you a more general question. Do you believe that since you became Prime Minister it has become more acceptable in this country for individuals and entrepreneurs to make a lot of money?
Tony Blair:
Whether it is more acceptable or not, I don’t know, but a lot of people have, but I think that is a good thing. I think we should be proud of the people who are successful and become entrepreneurs who are wealthy, and one of the things that is happening is that a lot of those people now put something back into the community. And the reason why things like the City Academy programme are important, the voluntary sector work is important, is that you have got people who have been successful who are willing to support those things. And I have always been concerned at trying to lift the living standards of people at the poorer end, rather than stop those people who make money making money, and I think in a global market that is the way it has to be. In a funny way I think if anything we still need to make it more acceptable for people to work their way up and do well, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. And I think there is a tendency still to think if someone has made a lot of money then there must be something wrong with them, whereas maybe it is because there is something right with them. Now as I say people always talk about me as if I am sort of starry eyed about people who have made money, I am not, and I think people in the public services who do a fantastic job are people who are also creative and also very entrepreneurial, and that is great, but I don’t think we should be ashamed of success in this country, we should be proud of it.
Question:
Sorry, do you have any thoughts, you said we should do more to make it acceptable, do you have any thoughts on what more could be done and should be done?
Tony Blair:
Well I think one of the things we need to do, particularly for younger people, is to get them to think about how they can go into business and industry, become self-employed. And one of the things that we are doing with the specialist school and the trust school model is to have schools where enterprise and business becomes a very much greater part of what kids are taught from an early age. And in the end if you look at the successful countries round the world today they are harnessing skills and talented people, human capital is the biggest resource of a country, and I think particularly in our schools sector there are still a lot of people who always think that they are going to be employed and who often say wouldn’t look at modern manufacturing or parts of modern industry as a potential career, when in fact there are fantastic opportunities there.
Question:
It is a question that I know I asked this time last year about magazine supply and distribution. (inaudible) A year on I have not seen any progress on this. But what is happening is the universal supply is under kind of huge threat thanks to the government’s decision to allow the OFT to align with Europe on competition law. The indications are that the OFT favours supermarkets being given charge of the supply chain, an outcome that is going to lead to thousands of these young entrepreneurs you are talking about losing their jobs, newsagents closing and all the rest of it, and I think it is about time the government, with the DTI, actually started to take a serious interest in what will effectively threaten freedom of the press because newspapers and magazines will not be sold in independent newsagents if this goes through.
Tony Blair:
But isn’t what is happening now that the OFT is examining all of this?
Question:
The OFT have rather unhelpfully said actually that it has no responsibility for the public interest, so we think that the government actually should take some interest in the provision of a free and diverse press, but of course John Singleton has said that he would welcome supermarkets driving national distribution. That is not very helpful to the small independent retailers, and this is a very recent announcement he made on 31 May.
Tony Blair:
Yes, but isn’t the point, what has actually happened in the last year is that the OFT are now conducting their inquiry into it?
Question:
They are.
Tony Blair:
And the trouble is I have got to wait, I can’t interfere in that I am afraid.
Question:
Well you can because we were very encouraged by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport last October, when the Minister expressed concern about the public interest dimension, but given that the OFT has stated publicly that it doesn’t have responsibility for public interest, we believe the DTI should also be seen to engage publicly in this matter and you can influence that.
Tony Blair:
Yes, but surely you can only look at the public interest dimension of this as a government once they have made their report?
Question:
They have made their report and we have until I think September 2007 when it is finally concluded, but it is definitely a matter to be looked into.
Tony Blair:
Yes, OK, but I am just thinking, I am actually looking to the back here, but I am actually thinking before we get to that point the government can’t express a view until we have gone through the whole of the process surely.
Question:
The DTI could.
Tony Blair:
Well I need to look into that before I, because I was actually told, the trouble is if I interfere with an OFT investigation then I will get into trouble, even though I am sure you would like to lure me into that particular base, but that is actually what has happened in the past year is that there is this inquiry and I think it has got to run its course before we can give a decision. You are right, we have obviously got the power in the end on public interest grounds to intervene, but we would have to do that taking account of what they have said about the competition issues.
Question:
At the moment they are going to be favouring supermarkets, who will probably take over the wholesale distribution thus putting lots of smaller magazines and people like us out of business, and the retailers. So please help.
Tony Blair:
Right, OK.
Question:
I am asking a question about NICE and postcode prescribing. Now NICE was established in 1999 with the very good motivation of getting drugs fairly available across England, and obviously Wales is included. And what seems to be happening now is that the NICE process seems to have got discredited. It takes quite a long time, yes they are speeding things up, but people still feel there is a window of opportunity when a drug is first marketed, that they get the patient group involved and then there is pressure on PCTs to prescribe these drugs when it is not necessarily in their strategy for that particular area. And clinicians also see that the evidence moves on faster than NICE can cope with it and they start prescribing different regimens than NICE recommends. And so the whole process seems to be collapsing and I just wondered what you thought was the best way to enable drugs to be freely available.
Tony Blair:
Well I don’t think the process is collapsing actually, I think what is happening is, and people should remember what happened before NICE. I think the reason NICE was established was precisely because there wasn’t clarity of an independent and objective nature as to what the right situation was in respect of any drug. Now actually what NICE are doing is now fast tracking things like herceptin and so on, but it has got to be done with a lot of care because the people who are operating in the area will say herceptin is very, very valuable for certain types of patient but not necessarily for others. And therefore the idea of having an Institute of Clinical Excellence that actually evaluates is extremely important. And the point is that when NICE evaluates and actually clears a drug and says this is helpful for these categories of people to be used in this way, then the government has got a commitment that it is going to fund it. So I think you do need that objective process and although it is under a lot of attack from people, that is because frankly when any new drug comes on the market people, not unnaturally, there will be some people who will want to use it, there will be clinicians that want to prescribe it, and we in government, unless we are going to be sitting there simply saying OK whatever people want we have just got to write the cheque for it, we have got to have some objective way of assessing whether it is sensible that we do that or not. Do you see what I mean?
Question:
Yes, but PCTs still want to be able to have the decision at the end, yes they have the NICE guidance but sometimes they have other priorities. And if choice is meant to be devolved down to local communities and then they don’t necessarily, that choice is taken away from them.
Tony Blair:
Yes, but that is precisely what I mean. That is a separate issue in a sense with if NICE makes a deliberation, how do we make sure that the PCTs use it, and what we have been saying, we obviously give then, following a NICE recommendation, we give guidance to the PCTs as to what they should do so that people don’t get into postcode lottery on drugs. But it is very difficult before NICE makes a recommendation for us to step in because otherwise we don’t know what the evidence base is upon which we are basing our judgment. And the whole reason why NICE began was that people were complaining that without a proper objective evidence base government was either funding this, or not funding it, and people were saying well how do we know whether this is right or not. And actually the interesting thing about NICE is that the establishment of it may have run into these issues here, but abroad people are looking at this and saying well this is the way that we should be going.
Question:
So however imperfect it is you think it is the best way forward?
Tony Blair:
Well I don’t know a better way, because the only way in the end is to say you have got to have some objective body that says here is independent advice based on the best clinical research. And whenever you get a situation where there is a new drug that comes on the market, you know we have examples of where the drug doesn’t become available quickly enough, we also have examples where after a certain time it appears that the drug doesn’t do quite what people thought it might do, or it may have other effects. But all I am saying is that in the end we can speed up the NICE process, and that is what we are trying to do now with the fast track provision, but I think it would be dangerous if we got rid of that because we would just be back to where we were before with all the complaints that actually led to the setting up of it in the first place. I do discuss though, and obviously the Department of Health do, with the pharmaceutical companies, we have got a major research and development process here in this country and there is an aspect to this which is our relationship with the pharmaceuticals, which is very important, I do understand that. And so I am very happy if we look at how we quicken the process and make it more transparent, but I think it would be dangerous if we got rid of it.
Question:
It is a question about top shelf magazines. There seems to be a growing vocal threat emerging from parliament that is of concern to some mainstream publishers of magazines aimed at young men, namely that there ought to be regulation about their positioning and how they are displayed in newsagents. I wondered whether you felt it necessary that they should be displayed on the top shelf or that they should have age stamps?
Tony Blair:
I don’t know what I think about this actually. I don’t really know, I don’t know. The only thing I think is that, I mean I am not …
Question:
You don’t read Nuts or Zoo for example?
Tony Blair:
Look, compared with most of what I have to read, particularly about myself, it would probably be a welcome relief. But no. However, look I have a fairly open and liberal mind on this. All I think is important is that other people aren’t, you know that it is obviously not available for kids and where it is inappropriate. But I don’t know. If it is allowed for the Prime Minister not to have an extremely firm view on something, I don’t really have one on that. I will have to think about it. Is there some great government policy on this I have missed? It escaped you at the same time - right, OK.
Question:
I would just like to know your opinion with regard to the Niger Delta crisis going on presently, and taking from lessons learned from Iraq what other support do you think you could give to the Nigerian government in trying to deal with this issue in a diplomatic and appropriate manner, especially taking into consideration that most of these so-called terrorists or rebels are watching telly and learning some bad examples from what is happening in Iraq and … that part of the region?
Tony Blair:
Well what we are trying to do in the Niger Delta is to work with the Nigerian government, both to build their capacity to keep the peace, and we do a lot of work with the Nigerian government on the capability they have got, and in addition to that we are working for a standby force in Africa as well to try and intervene where there are difficulties, particularly when there are difficulties that have got religious and ethnic overtones, as those in the Niger Delta. But in the end the best answer to these problems is to encourage development, to give stability and also to defeat those, including those in the Niger Delta, who want to split religious groups from each other. And I am afraid this is a worldwide phenomenon of global terrorism that is based on a perversion of the true doctrine of Islam, but it is there and we need to deal with it wherever it raises its head. And we have been working very hard with the Nigerian government on this, and Nigeria is an interesting example of a country that is basically 50/50 split between Christians and Muslims and therefore it would be very sad indeed if that type of tension came in there. So we are working on it and it is something I have discussed with the Nigerian President a lot.
So, from Nuts to the Niger Delta.
Question:
I wanted to move on to nuclear energy now, if you don’t mind.
Tony Blair:
I’m up for anything now.
Question:
I would focus on my title of European business, but I am aware that all of the energy provision of Rotterdam city is from a decentralised source, and 50% of Denmark’s energy is from a decentralised source. Why is the government moving towards a nuclear solution for Britain’s energy production when there is ample evidence to suggest that the challenge of global warming and fossil fuel shortages can be better met through a decentralised energy production infrastructure embracing renewable fuels and energy sources?
Tony Blair:
Well I think the answer to that is you are going to have to do everything if you want to deal with the energy security issues and climate change. But when we publish the Energy Review it will not simply focus on nuclear, it will focus on renewables and a big expansion of renewables, energy efficiency, there is combined heat and power which of course is very much the solution in Denmark. There are a whole series of things that we will be focusing on, but there is a simple stark fact that I would just like to put in front of people, which is we are going to go over the next 15 or 20 years to a situation where: one, the 20% that we get of our electricity from nuclear is going to decline to virtually zero; and two, where we are going to go from being 80 or 90% self-sufficient in oil and gas, to 80 or 90% importing it. And I think what that means is if we want to safeguard our energy supply, as well as deal with climate change, we have got to put everything in the mix and have a balanced policy. And I am talking about whether we replace the existing nuclear power component of our electricity, but if we are not going to replace it we are going to have to, well what is going to happen on renewables is going to have to be absolutely massive.
Question:
Are we going to harness the tidal energy of the Severn estuary? There has been a plan for it since 1922 I believe.
Tony Blair:
There has, but there is a reason why you know from 1922 to 2006 it hasn’t been done, and that is because no-one has found a way of making it commercial. Look, I think for ourselves and right round the world we want to be encouraging research and development into all forms of renewable energy, and one of the reasons why I am in favour of a binding framework internationally is that I think if you give business a clear direction on energy policy and renewables, they will start trying to take some of these things closer to market, but we are not in that place yet.
Question:
Is it not also the case that a resumption of nuclear energy is not exactly commercial either, it will require some sort of subsidy?
Tony Blair:
No, I think that we are not in the business of subsidies, we are in the business however of permission if that is the way people want to go. I mean you will have to wait for the Energy Review which will come out in the next two or three weeks.
Question:
You were voted in on a non-nuclear ticket at the last election.
Tony Blair:
I don’t know that we were voted in on a non-nuclear ticket, I think we have always kept the option open. But even if we weren’t frankly, the fact is you have got an energy problem. One of the problems of being in government and being Prime Minister is that you have to say things that sometimes people don’t want to hear. And the plain fact of the matter is that if you take those two facts that I have said over 15 - 20 years, if we don’t act now that is what will happen. Now there are people who say you can make it all up through renewables, but if they are wrong, in 15 or 20 years we are going to have a serious problem in this country and we will be completely dependent on imports of oil and gas from abroad which will mean (a) not a very good thing on climate change, but (b) that we are heavily dependent on foreign supply. Now my view is that is a dangerous gamble to take. And as I say I am not saying we are not going to boost renewables, because we are. This government has done more in renewables than any government before it and we are going to boost it still further. We are putting hundreds of millions of pounds into research for renewables. Energy efficiency, the new building regulations, mean a 40% improvement in new build efficiency and we should do all of those things. Micro-generation, I am absolutely in favour of it, and we should look at how the planning system needs to change.
But let me just tell you something, because I know this from my own constituency experience, if you ask people whether in principle they are in favour of renewable energy they will say yes, if you say to them well we are going to site a wind farm here, they take a slightly different view. And in the end I have got to come out with something that is practical, and there are some decisions that, you believe this or not as you will, I feel a really deep sense of responsibility as Prime Minister and I think I do not want a situation where people turn around in 15 - 20 years time and say what on earth were they thinking of, you know they ended up with a situation where we ran down our nuclear power stations, we thought we could get it through renewables and now we are wholly dependent on very, very expensive imports of gas and oil.
And let me just tell you one other thing, since I am on the subject, that is going on in the world today. If you look at what is happening with China, for totally understandable reasons, but you just look at the relationship, we were talking about Africa a moment or two ago, look at what is happening with China and Africa. China is going through the whole of Africa buying commodities, including energy, and they are doing that for a very simple reason, they have got hundreds of millions of people living in poverty and they need to get out of that poverty. But what this is doing is it is driving up the price of those commodities, particularly energy. So the danger is that you end up not merely being dependent on imports, but dependent on imports whose price you really cannot gauge. So I just think that the sensible precaution is to have a balanced energy policy, you put it all in the mix. But to take out of that nuclear power and say that is it, well it is a very, very big step for us to take and I would need a lot of convincing that renewables were going to fill the gap.
Question:
… We have all read Charles Clarke’s thoughts on you, is this your Geoffrey Howe moment?
Tony Blair:
No. Look I actually have a very great regard for Charles both for what he did in government and afterwards. I simply felt he had to move from his position for the reasons I gave at the time. But actually as we have just seen from the discussion on energy policy, the fact is whether it is Health Service reform, which some people may disagree with, schools reform, which some people may disagree with, energy policy which obviously people do disagree with, pensions reform, across a whole range of issues this is a government that is basically, our problems arise not from a lack of doing things, we are doing things. Now people may disagree with the direction but that we have a direction is very, very clear. And the most important thing is just to get on with the business of government and the surface noise that happens you know is just what happens in government and I have learnt to appreciate that over the years.
Question:
So how are you going to tackle the remarks he has made?
Tony Blair:
You don’t tackle them, you get on with tackling the issues that people care about. In the end it is more important for us for example to deal with what I was describing last Friday is the gap between the public perception of what the criminal justice system should deliver and what it actually delivers. That is what the thing is about in the end. I also think there is a danger in modern politics that people end up in a situation where it is like you are fighting a perpetual election campaign, and in one sense in politics you are, but in another sense you know we are a year from a general election, we had one barely a year ago, we have got three years, if not more, before the next general election. And what we should do is just calm down, hold our nerve and get on with governing.
Question:
On a totally different note, if England win the World Cup will we have a national holiday please?
Tony Blair:
What did I say the last time I was asked this? I don’t know, we will wait and see, we will wait and see. These decisions are not solely made by me.
Question:
Do you think your government have done enough to support the institute of marriage, is my primary question? And although this is not related it is very important. Did I imagine it or did your government say that they would abolish whatever it is called, multi-sex wards, I mean mixed sex wards, and if so what has happened to that? It has nothing to do with my bridal question by the way.
Tony Blair:
Well I think on the mixed sex wards, if we are not absolutely there we are very, very close to it. I can get you the exact percentage figure, but as I say if we haven’t met it …
Question:
You did say you would.
Tony Blair:
Yes, and we have done, I know, but let me get you the exact figures on it but I would suspect it is now very rare.
Question:
Because it would be nice.
Tony Blair:
Quite, but I think you will find in the vast majority that is now the case, but I will get you the precise figure on it.
Question:
And what about the institution of marriage, how do you feel about that?
Tony Blair:
I feel fine about it. Look, I think the question is what can government do, and incidentally I do think it is worth looking at how we can support the family and support marriage as an institution, but every time this turns to policy, and I have been over this area a lot of times, you get into some quite tricky issues about for example if you want to use the tax system, if you want to use it to support marriage what do you do when your primary support is really going to be for the children frankly and you may have single parents that are bringing up children in circumstances of great difficulty. So do you say we support you only if you are married, but we don’t support the single parent with the kids?
And that is why, I have got to say this, in the end, I mean I am not saying, I am perfectly happy to examine any idea that is put forward to support the institution of marriage, but I do believe this does somewhat fall into the category of people saying look why isn’t government doing this when actually it is for all of us to do it. As I said to someone once, if whether you get married really, really does depend on what is the tax regime then I think there is a problem there I would suggest with the relationship. And sometimes I think, and we tend to do this in politics incidentally, we sort of say right there is a problem, we have got to deal with it as a government. I don’t quite know how we would get the right policy for that and so although in principle I am very happy to examine anything, every time you look at this, particularly when you look at the sort of tax breaks idea, you find it is fraught with difficulty and sometimes with real unfairness.
Question:
We are doing a campaign at the moment, we want to encourage the government to free up more land for people to build their own homes. Now I think that the government should take this seriously because you are very keen on encouraging housing, and particularly affordable housing. Now the good thing about people who build their own homes is they also build sustainable houses that are very environmentally friendly, so do you think the government should do more to encourage people to build their own homes?
Tony Blair:
We are doing more to release government land for building, and one of the things we are doing is looking specifically at how you can combine releasing government land and shared equity schemes. I don’t know that we are specifically doing that in relation to people building their own homes.
Question:
Because if planning authorities were encouraged to allocate land for one-off builders then that could happen, but what is happening is it is given to commercial developers and they do affordable housing and obviously the nice housing which they get lots of profit for, but the one-off builders are pushed out of the market.
Tony Blair:
Right, well that is something I deserve to be educated on, since I am not … at the moment.
Question:
Inaudible.
Tony Blair:
Well actually I have got to go and run a mile for Sport Relief, and would you believe it they have paired me with, am I seriously running it with Seb Coe? That was really nice of whoever decided that in the office, thank you.
Question:
Prime Minister, the all party Small Shops Group identified the problems that independent shops have compared to all the supermarkets, too much red tape, restricted access for deliveries, limited parking and very high business rates. Could we not look at the totally different model of accountability that local councils have to small shops in Europe and improve the model that we have here?
Tony Blair:
Yes we can do that, but let me tell you what the problem is when you do it. Sometimes the reasons why for example there are planning restrictions there, and incidentally in general I am in favour of both freeing up and speeding up our planning system, but sometimes there are good reasons, I mean to do with the local environment for example, why the restrictions are there. And there is a case made occasionally by consumers organisations in the rest of Europe that one of the reasons why these restrictions are there is as a form of protectionism, so you have got to be just careful in getting the balance. But one of the things we have wanted to do, in part actually by restricting some of the out of town development, is to try and reinvigorate the small shop sector, particularly in town centres. The reasons for the planning however can be environmental as well as simply red tape, and some of that I think would be difficult to displace. And it is for the local authorities to decide it incidentally in the end.
Question:
Because in Australia for example now you don’t build a supermarket, they don’t give planning permission for that, you have to build a complex and that supermarket needs to be surrounded by small shops. Equally in Europe the local councillors are far more accountable for business rates and everything to small shops, they positively enable small shops to thrive. Here I think we have got the balance out of kilter.
Tony Blair:
Well there is a real point I think, and this is one of the reasons for the present consultation on business rates and all the rest of it and local authorities, but I am in favour in general of giving more powers to local authorities over their local situation and making sure that local authorities have the opportunity, if that is what they want to do, to go and encourage particular types of business development. The only thing is I feel for us to go, and I wasn’t aware that that happened in Australia, but for us to go and intervene and say that from central government seems to me quite difficult.
Question:
The British retail consortium is so powerful on lobbying and no-one seems to represent the small shops.
Tony Blair:
No, I understand.
Question:
Professor Bonnie Sibbald has done research and discovered that GPs since the new contract earn £15,000 a year more for working four hours less a week. Are GPs now overpaid?
Tony Blair:
In my view, no they are not. I think that actually a lot of what the GPs do now within the national service frameworks is a lot more to do with the public health in their area, for example checking that potential heart patients are checked up on, we are also opening up incidentally the way that under-doctored areas are allowed to have new providers coming in, they are also having to engage with practice based commissioning which is a big, big change. No, my view of this is very simple. I think the fact that we are paying our health professionals more is good, but what we need in return for that is more change and more reform that puts greater power in the hands of the patient and I think that is the right balance.
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